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i give up
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105 posts in this topic

2 minutes ago, BladeTX said:

I agree with this 100% with you. But think about it. Unscrupulous people have been screwing collectors of anything collectible since time began.  Raw coins are scary due to so many good counterfeits and the grading services guarantee it is not.  That is a huge piece of mind.  Does CGC even guarantee against counterfeits and restoration?  That they can for sure evaluate.  If you buy a CGC Green Label and it has been restored,  will they buy it then entomb in a PLOD and resell?   I am out of my element here.  I TOTALLY get the arguments on post-grading declines unable to guarantee.  But what if they miss something they should have caught in grading.  Any accountability for that?  Just curious.

That is a good question, one which I have not ran across or seen yet.  But I am still pretty new to this also.  So most of this I am just winging it. :)

The harder you try the more it breeds a better criminal.

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8 minutes ago, Crops068 said:

That is a good question, one which I have not ran across or seen yet.  But I am still pretty new to this also.  So most of this I am just winging it. :)

The harder you try the more it breeds a better criminal.

OK, so forget the rest of the noise here. Let’s get an answer for this.  CGC graded a book.  It is later identified as restored or a counterfeit.  What happens next?

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2 minutes ago, BladeTX said:

OK, so forget the rest of the noise here. Let’s get an answer for this.  CGC graded a book.  It is later identified as restored or a counterfeit.  What happens next?

Do a search for Jason Ewert.

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3 hours ago, BladeTX said:

are you saying there is no concern at all of grading standards changing or that someone might have an opinion which would lower the grade?  I'm just confused why everyone seems to think this is irrelevant.

That is correct, there is no concern from anyone other than you and your friend.  As has been said, it's not an issue.  If the case is intact, the encapsulation crew performs a purely mechanical function and do what they're getting paid to do, reholder.  It doesn't involve graders, who are busy grading.  CGC is not in the habit of performing services for which they're not getting paid.

There is always risk of course, but it lies overwhelmingly in the area of shipping.  Why anyone would even think of reholdering any AF15 to get a new Marvel label and risk what could happen to that book between hand off and receipt is beyond me.  Now the reasoning behind that decision, the risk/benefit analysis, that would make for a decent thread. 

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8 minutes ago, Dr. Love said:

 

There is always risk of course, but it lies overwhelmingly in the area of shipping.  Why anyone would even think of reholdering any AF15 to get a new Marvel label and risk what could happen to that book between hand off and receipt is beyond me.  Now the reasoning behind that decision, the risk/benefit analysis, that would make for a decent thread. 

Yeah but the new Marvel label will surely up the value! 

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A CGC grade is 2 things: (1) a subjective opinion (2) given at a moment in time. 

(1) As to the subjective nature of grading; that’s why CGC has multiple people examine each book. They know that opinions will differ and more eyes on a book reduce (but don’t eliminate) variance. 

(2) Comics are fragile and constantly in a state of deterioration. All books will eventually turn to dust. As others have said, they can fade in sunlight, get damaged from bumping against the edges of the case, detach from the staples if handled or stored improperly. That is why the grade is valid at the moment it’s graded and should be taken as advisory afterwards. Unless you seal it in carbonite that is just reality. CGC could not logically guaranty anything. 

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56 minutes ago, Dr. Love said:

  Why anyone would even think of reholdering any AF15 to get a new Marvel label and risk what could happen to that book between hand off and receipt is beyond me.  Now the reasoning behind that decision, the risk/benefit analysis, that would make for a decent thread. 

What upside is there to doing such a thing (AF15 from old(er) holder to Marvel holder)?

I cringe thinking of it. 

What if SL sig appears inside an AF15? Get it reholder to say SL written in book? Yes, I know it wouldn’t be a yellow label. 

Edited by NoMan
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16 minutes ago, Red84 said:

A CGC grade is 2 things: (1) a subjective opinion (2) given at a moment in time. 

(1) As to the subjective nature of grading; that’s why CGC has multiple people examine each book. They know that opinions will differ and more eyes on a book reduce (but don’t eliminate) variance. 

(2) Comics are fragile and constantly in a state of deterioration. All books will eventually turn to dust. As others have said, they can fade in sunlight, get damaged from bumping against the edges of the case, detach from the staples if handled or stored improperly. That is why the grade is valid at the moment it’s graded and should be taken as advisory afterwards. Unless you seal it in carbonite that is just reality. CGC could not logically guaranty anything. 

Hi Red84, you sound like a reasonable guy and I agree with all you said.   But what about my question about counterfeits and restoration.   CGC's sister company NGC will guarantee a coin is not counterfeit or they will buy it at market price.  This also includes manipulating the coin so that it is more valuable (such as changing a date or mint mark).  NGC and PCGS use 2-3 graders and one Senior final grader for confirmation.  So does CGC do the same?  I would assume they have equally talented people to identify fakes & restoration.   Thoughts?

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44 minutes ago, BladeTX said:

Hi Red84, you sound like a reasonable guy and I agree with all you said.   But what about my question about counterfeits and restoration.   CGC's sister company NGC will guarantee a coin is not counterfeit or they will buy it at market price.  This also includes manipulating the coin so that it is more valuable (such as changing a date or mint mark).  NGC and PCGS use 2-3 graders and one Senior final grader for confirmation.  So does CGC do the same?  I would assume they have equally talented people to identify fakes & restoration.   Thoughts?

Yes. All the above. 

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48 minutes ago, BladeTX said:

Hi Red84, you sound like a reasonable guy and I agree with all you said.   But what about my question about counterfeits and restoration.   CGC's sister company NGC will guarantee a coin is not counterfeit or they will buy it at market price.  This also includes manipulating the coin so that it is more valuable (such as changing a date or mint mark).  NGC and PCGS use 2-3 graders and one Senior final grader for confirmation.  So does CGC do the same?  I would assume they have equally talented people to identify fakes & restoration.   Thoughts?

I don't believe that there has ever been a case of CGC missing a counterfeit. They have missed restoration; though it is rare. There is a thread about a Journey into Mystery that went from purple to blue to purple or some variation of that. However, in the rare circumstance that restoration is missed I would expect that CGC would make it right through compensation (which I think they did in that situation) just as they would if a comic were damaged in their possession. 

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2 hours ago, Dr. Love said:

That is correct, there is no concern from anyone other than you and your friend.  As has been said, it's not an issue.  If the case is intact, the encapsulation crew performs a purely mechanical function and do what they're getting paid to do, reholder.  It doesn't involve graders, who are busy grading.  CGC is not in the habit of performing services for which they're not getting paid.

There is always risk of course, but it lies overwhelmingly in the area of shipping.  Why anyone would even think of reholdering any AF15 to get a new Marvel label and risk what could happen to that book between hand off and receipt is beyond me.  Now the reasoning behind that decision, the risk/benefit analysis, that would make for a decent thread. 

I wish the first half of your post was always the case...

And to answer the 2nd half of the question, I think the AF15's look awesome in the new cases and while a label is just a printed label, Spider-man is cool so that $5 for the custom label is worth it to me but only for the keys (just my opinion, though).  But you're right in the risk vs reward of it is possibly too great to warrant a re-holder.  Theft/mishandling in shipping...extremely high shipping costs to insure the package...risk of the book being damaged in cracking/reslabbing - I get it.  Those new holders are just so pretty, though!  :cry:

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2 hours ago, Red84 said:

I don't believe that there has ever been a case of CGC missing a counterfeit. They have missed restoration; though it is rare. There is a thread about a Journey into Mystery that went from purple to blue to purple or some variation of that. However, in the rare circumstance that restoration is missed I would expect that CGC would make it right through compensation (which I think they did in that situation) just as they would if a comic were damaged in their possession. 

Thank you for your thoughtful reply.  That sounds fair.

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13 hours ago, Sensei Ryan said:

I agree, but Tom's not talking about the CPR treatment but just getting books re-holdered to the new, more aesthetically pleasing holders.  I also think that we should assume the risk ourselves if we send in anything for pressing and then re-grading.

I’m not talking about CPR either. If a fraction of a grade difference is so slight that it could be a 9.6 or a 9.9 depending on the mood of the grader, don’t pay an extra 40 grand for the 9.9

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To get the point back on task, its up to the owner to store it right, if they store it somewhere where the staples get rusted due to humidity, drop a book or get SCS then of course if its to get reholder it should be downgraded.  It would be negligent of CGC not to and as much as its a bummer to the owner it would be equally a bummer to the next owner but the difference is its deceptive on the owner that would know this grade would be changed.  Now, I think others also point this out that this is if there is new visible damage, not just another crack of grading it and I think the price for reholdering shows they are going to go indepth in grading.

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On 5/10/2019 at 7:19 AM, dupont2005 said:

Don’t pay a $40,000 premium for a fraction of a grade higher if simply breathing too close to the comic could bump it down to that lower grade

This, this, a thousand times, THIS.

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25 minutes ago, RockMyAmadeus said:

lol

I think you mean "lustrous."

Lustry...now that's a fun word...

Yep, typing too fast, brain can’t keep up lol

and thanks for your comments in my defense. I do appreciate it.  I’m pretty new to the hobby, I guess some people like to take cheap shots from behind their keyboards.  Sad, really.

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1 hour ago, BladeTX said:

Yep, typing too fast, brain can’t keep up lol

and thanks for your comments in my defense. I do appreciate it.  I’m pretty new to the hobby, I guess some people like to take cheap shots from behind their keyboards.  Sad, really.

Somebody needs a redbull too keep up!

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