i give up
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19 minutes ago, Bookery said:

The problem is not in the stars (CGC), but in our selves.  Comic collectors adamantly refuse to accept what a grading service is, and what it's limitations are.  I believe with today's technology it is probably possible (though likely not financially feasible) to invent a machine that could consistently scan and grade coins.  This will never happen with comic books.  Grading comics will always be a matter of OPINION.  When you send in a comic for grading you are paying for an opinion ... an educated opinion, hopefully, but an opinion nonetheless subject to all of the limitations that entails.  CGC (or any other company) will never be as consistent at grading as I am (or any other careful long-time dealer or collector) simply because they have employed dozens of graders over the years.  All of the training in the world isn't going to transform those human beings into identical infallible robots.

Point 2 -- the slabs reduce the chances of future damage, but certainly don't preclude it.  Besides internal movement within the slabs, if you leave a slab outside in bright sunlight, the comic will still fade and the grade will not be the same as is stated on the label.  A CGC case is like a mylar bag on steroids... but it can't prevent all sorts of potential damage down the road.  All CGC can do is give you their OPINION of the book before them in this particular time and place.  And that opinion might (will) change over time with different grading crews.  I personally don't see how it's possible to "guarantee" an "opinion".

And as for people paying 10-fold for a 9.9 over a 9.8... in MY OPINION that is silly bordering on psychosis, and should not be CGC's concern.  It has been proven, time and again, that even the professional graders will switch back and forth over time from a 9.6 to a 9.8, let alone now down to a tenth of a point.  And yet there are those crying for yet even greater divisions of grades... all for a multi-faceted fragile paper product graded by an ever-changing array of human beings who have good days and bad days and are not robots.

While I completely get where you're coming from and understand how that we're paying for an opinion, CGC should back that opinion with a guarantee that they (CGC) won't change their minds on it.  Otherwise, why grade books in the first place if none of it matters?  

Think about it...if a grader is hired by CGC and 5 years later another CGC grader sees it and thinks it's a lesser grade, the original grader was still a CGC grader and to change it discounts literally every book previously graded by said grader from the very same company.  So an opinion can be guaranteed with a backing by the company...it would just require a policy change.  Also, aren't the grades assigned after being checked over by more than one person anyway?  Why would multiple CGC graders be in disagreement with a newer CGC re-holder grader?  To me, this can be potentially undermining and is easily fixable with a policy change.  Granted, I don't see that happening...but you never know.

This, of course, excludes damaged cases due to owner neglect, damage / mishandling in transit, etc.  I'm solely speaking about re-holder submissions for non-damaged cases.

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1 minute ago, Sensei Ryan said:

While I completely get where you're coming from and understand how that we're paying for an opinion, CGC should back that opinion with a guarantee that they (CGC) won't change their minds on it.  Otherwise, why grade books in the first place if none of it matters?  

All opinions are only good at the time they are given. Your doctor, your lawyer, your fashion influencer...any opinion is only good at the time it is rendered. Time and other factors will impact all decisions.

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No one should be sending in "unicorn-grade" books (9.9/10.0) for a reholder, those are for sellin' to people who are willing to pay the surcharge for a nosebleed grade.  Anyone willing to pay for a nosebleed graded comic should want CGC to do their best to ensure that anything in their possession for review gets shipped out with an accurate grade. 

I think the economics of a pre-screen reholder service are viable for them to consider but if they did it officially I think it would hurt their aftermarket reputation.  A possible middle ground might be to flag all "rejected reholders" in the census(shrug)  but that creates yet another insider knowledge advantage for hardcore CGC'ers at the expense of casual collectors.

I think the core complaint from some is wanting a reholder to be guaranteed to hold its' grade regardless of accuracy and I don't have a problem with that NOT happening.  I suspect the reholder dilemma is a problem for modern collectors who have subbed their own copies for their collections, which is great even though I don't really understand grading stuff that has to be 9.8 or better to be "worth it".  I sort of figure if it's not worth slabbing an 8.0 it ain't worth slabbing at all. 

-bababooeywarcomics

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Some people only hear what they want to hear, despite the advice given by an entire crew of people with extensive experience and expertise. 

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Posted (edited)

This is the best thread title ever. Covers all and any situations. Who wouldn't click it?

Edited by NoMan

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7 hours ago, TwoPiece said:

Is this the equivalent to a girl saying she's ugly as to fish for compliments?

Are you asking us to convince you to stay in the hobby?

If so... Bye!

Is that what they're up to?

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Posted (edited)
4 hours ago, Bookery said:

The problem is not in the stars (CGC), but in our selves.  Comic collectors adamantly refuse to accept what a grading service is, and what it's limitations are.  I believe with today's technology it is probably possible (though likely not financially feasible) to invent a machine that could consistently scan and grade coins.  This will never happen with comic books.  Grading comics will always be a matter of OPINION.  When you send in a comic for grading you are paying for an opinion ... an educated opinion, hopefully, but an opinion nonetheless subject to all of the limitations that entails.  CGC (or any other company) will never be as consistent at grading as I am (or any other careful long-time dealer or collector) simply because they have employed dozens of graders over the years.  All of the training in the world isn't going to transform those human beings into identical infallible robots.

Point 2 -- the slabs reduce the chances of future damage, but certainly don't preclude it.  Besides internal movement within the slabs, if you leave a slab outside in bright sunlight, the comic will still fade and the grade will not be the same as is stated on the label.  A CGC case is like a mylar bag on steroids... but it can't prevent all sorts of potential damage down the road.  All CGC can do is give you their OPINION of the book before them in this particular time and place.  And that opinion might (will) change over time with different grading crews.  I personally don't see how it's possible to "guarantee" an "opinion".

And as for people paying 10-fold for a 9.9 over a 9.8... in MY OPINION that is silly bordering on psychosis, and should not be CGC's concern.  It has been proven, time and again, that even the professional graders will switch back and forth over time from a 9.6 to a 9.8, let alone now down to a tenth of a point.  And yet there are those crying for yet even greater divisions of grades... all for a multi-faceted fragile paper product graded by an ever-changing array of human beings who have good days and bad days and are not robots.

Hi there, but having spent 7 years as a highly intensive coin collector, you are completely wrong.   There are equally as many variables that go into coin grading as comics.  Just a few of the hundreds of intangibles:  what is the surface like - reflective or lustry?; Is there toning (rainbow is the most prized) and how does that affect (or detract from) the overall appearance.  If there are marks, where are they?  A ding in the key central area versus 4 very light scratches in the field?  Then there are points from 0 (poor) to 70 (perfect Mint) that must be considered.  And it is still an OPINION.  

There just happens to be companies (PCGS and CGC's sister company NGC) that will stand behind that grade - because they grade conservatively but challenging that guarantee requires that the grading company agree with you.  And it is at their discretion.  And similar to comics, grading standards shift over time.  Getting a 20 year old graded coin in the 1st gen holder often can be worth more because they were hyper conservative when they launched.  Comparing to comics, it is like an older "8.0" is a better book than a current "8.0".  

In fact, given the range of coin sizes, materials, wear characteristics, toning, different surfaces, and the ever-present grade-influencing "eye appeal", I can make a good argument that coin grading is more difficult.   And in no cases for any amount of money could some device consider all necessary aspects to adequately grade coins.   Let's close the case on this one.

Edited by BladeTX

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6 hours ago, Sensei Ryan said:

I can totally understand that, however, if there is nothing wrong with the slab itself, why would it not have received the 'correct' grade the first time by the same company it's sent back to?   This is where I see the problem - it's scary to think that just sending in a book for a reholder for a now superior  and more attractive case you run the risk of losing value on your investment.  It's like saying, 'we thought this was a 4.5 but now it's a 4 so we're going to knock it down to it's now CORRECT grade.'  How does that instill confidence in anyone...especially for the high value books? 

I agree with Tom in that we should have some sort of security when sending in a reholder with the caveat of 'if WE - CGC - are found at fault for mis-grading this the first time we will honor the FMV of the grade drop - however, if we are NOT found at fault the book will just be re-graded at the risk of the buyer.'

As it stands now there's no incentive for anyone to send in a reholder unless they want to run the risk of a loss of investment. I would love to get some of my books re-holdered but would not dare do so for the risk of the current situation.

Like Tom said, if CGC would just amend it's consideration on the stance even slightly it could stand to make tons of $ in re-holder fees (but that's just speculation as I'd be sending in many more books for re-holdering if I had some peace of mind).

what if CGC ticks it up a grade, does collector pay CGC difference or spread that payment around to other collectors?

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3 hours ago, Get Marwood & I said:

 

Of all the songs on that album, :sick:

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1 hour ago, NewWorldOrder said:

I can see you are like the rest of the drama me me me on social media.  

"oh no this happened today"

"Worst day ever"

"why me"

Typical click bait drama from a soy boy

Yep, that is exactly how I am.  Thanks for your professional psychological evaluation.  It's worth what I paid for it lol

So all the "experts" on here who on threads I've read say they want to reholder every 10 years... are you saying there is no concern at all of grading standards changing or that someone might have an opinion which would lower the grade?  I'm just confused why everyone seems to think this is irrelevant.  I honestly don't care, I put a couple ideas out there and ya'll freak out.

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35 minutes ago, NoMan said:

what if CGC ticks it up a grade, does collector pay CGC difference or spread that payment around to other collectors?

For grading services who guarantee their grade and you can pay a "reassessment" fee.  If it goes up, they take the grade up.  If it goes down, you get paid.  Pretty simple.

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1 hour ago, BladeTX said:

For grading services who guarantee their grade and you can pay a "reassessment" fee.  If it goes up, they take the grade up.  If it goes down, you get paid.  Pretty simple.

I respect your thoughts and opinions. However, I believe that fair is fair and if the grade goes down and CGC pays the collector the difference than if the grade goes up, the collector needs to pay someone that difference. Not sure who at this point. Still working on that. 

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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, NewWorldOrder said:

I was being nice.  I would say worse in person.

  Reveal hidden contents

OP is being a soy boy cuck.

 

I've got enough maturity to not even respond to someone like this.  Taking the high road here. Glad to field any mature conversations on any topics raised in this thread.

Edited by BladeTX

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Posted (edited)
14 minutes ago, NoMan said:

I respect your thoughts and opinions. However, I believe that fair is fair and if the grade goes down and CGC pays the collector the difference than if the grade goes up, the collector needs to pay someone that difference. Not sure who at this point. Still working on that. 

Honestly, there are so many dealers and experienced collectors that if a coin is clearly above the grade, they crack it out of the holder and resubmit it.  I did crossovers (from lower quality services to increase value) and crack-outs about 30-40 times.  Always had success with crossovers and about 50% of time with upgrades and only once had a grade decline.  I'm sure savvy people in comics do the same with CGC.

Damn, have not talked this much about coins since 2007.

Edited by BladeTX

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Posted (edited)

Perhaps the money the collector pays if they resub and their book goes up in grade could go to some kind of Comic Book Legal fund so when someone like Mike Diana draws children being beheaded and sodomized and what not and the authorities become alarmed (honestly, who could have thought?) his legal fees will be cared for. 

Edited by NoMan

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1 hour ago, BladeTX said:

For grading services who guarantee their grade and you can pay a "reassessment" fee.  If it goes up, they take the grade up.  If it goes down, you get paid.  Pretty simple.

I could see this going badly for CGC and the consumer.

Original owner sends in expensive comic to get graded, comes back a 9.8.  Handles it very poorly and knows he did this so sells it for top dollar on the interwebs.

Consumer some years later that purchased said comic decides it is time to get it reholdered to get with the times and have the newer and fancier tag and sends it in, none the wiser that Original Owner was an unscrupulous individual.

Who should have to lose in this scenario?  It is neither the current owner or CGC's fault that the grade will go down.

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29 minutes ago, Crops068 said:

I could see this going badly for CGC and the consumer.

Original owner sends in expensive comic to get graded, comes back a 9.8.  Handles it very poorly and knows he did this so sells it for top dollar on the interwebs.

Consumer some years later that purchased said comic decides it is time to get it reholdered to get with the times and have the newer and fancier tag and sends it in, none the wiser that Original Owner was an unscrupulous individual.

Who should have to lose in this scenario?  It is neither the current owner or CGC's fault that the grade will go down.

I agree with this 100% with you. But think about it. Unscrupulous people have been screwing collectors of anything collectible since time began.  Raw coins are scary due to so many good counterfeits and the grading services guarantee it is not.  That is a huge piece of mind.  Does CGC even guarantee against counterfeits and restoration?  That they can for sure evaluate.  If you buy a CGC Green Label and it has been restored,  will they buy it then entomb in a PLOD and resell?   I am out of my element here.  I TOTALLY get the arguments on post-grading declines unable to guarantee.  But what if they miss something they should have caught in grading.  Any accountability for that?  Just curious.

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