Modern Keys...a list? 2 2

[newshane]

1 minute ago, Hollywood1892 said:

Since we are in the discussions of moderns,what about EOSV 002?

I cannot even guess the book based on your acronym...so I'm going to go ahead and say it's not a key.  

People have different definitions, but I see the start of Image Comics, or maybe the "death" of Superman, as the birth of the Modern Era. 

Generally, anything in the 80s is Copper. 

[FlyingDonut]

19 hours ago, Bookery said:

A perfect example.  She was invented by TV.  DC picked up on this and began promoting the character in the comics.  She is now one of the most significant characters in the whole DC universe.  Popularity is one (perhaps the primary) factor in determining a Key issue.  And popularity can be ignited by all sorts of things   It's the reason the 1st appearance of Batman is a Key, and the 1st appearance of Kangaroo Man is not (yes... he's a real character).  In the past comic characters were made popular within the comics... good stories, or great art ignited interest in the character.  The publisher notices this, and begins using the character more and more.  Sometimes this happens quickly... sometimes it takes years.  But other things can spark popularity too.  And TV and movies are part of that... and becoming an ever-more significant factor in modern times.   

Buy copies of Amazing Spider-Man 81. Can't hurt.

[FlyingDonut]

3 hours ago, TwoPiece said:

Sorry, but, you're wrong.

Not to be a total tool here, but I'll take his word (an Overstreet advisor and a guy who runs an extraordinarily successful comic store) over yours.

[theCapraAegagrus]

2 minutes ago, newshane said:

I cannot even guess the book based on your acronym...so I'm going to go ahead and say it's not a key.  

People have different definitions, but I see the start of Image Comics, or maybe the "death" of Superman, as the birth of the Modern Era. 

Generally, anything in the 80s is Copper. 

I don't think CGC recognizes the "Copper Age". Is that a true statement? I believe they consider everything 1980+ as "Modern".

I think most people consider everything 1991+ as Modern. Feel free to correct me if I'm wrong.

[theCapraAegagrus]

1 minute ago, FlyingDonut said:

Not to be a total tool here, but I'll take his word (an Overstreet advisor and a guy who runs an extraordinarily successful comic store) over yours.

Go ahead. I couldn't care less.

[FlyingDonut]

1 hour ago, Bookery said:

You're arguing just to argue because you've ceased to make any sense.  Nobody has a clue as to what you're trying to get at.  Popularity doesn't make a key according to you.  Standing the test of time doesn't make a key according to you.  You've not given a definition of "key" other than some vague comments about 1st appearances... but every character ever created has a 1st app., so without popularity and standing the test of time, what does that mean?  I gave you a perfect example with "The Riddler".  Nobody (rationally) argues his 1st app. isn't key.  And nobody (rationally) argues his popularity and importance in the Batman universe wasn't the result of his introduction into the TV series.  Why is the 1st app. of Spider-Man important?  He wasn't especially innovative (pretty much a re-make of The Fly).  He's important because he became immensely popular.  And it doesn't matter how that popularity came about... within the comic medium itself, from a radio show, a TV program, a movie, or because a famous individual announces it's their favorite and the public suddenly takes notice.

Two things make something "key"... (A) of historical importance because it begins a trend, or makes other events possible; e.g. Famous Funnies #1 is a key because of its historical value, despite it not being especially popular with collectors-- most aren't seeking to own one... same thing can be said for The Yellow Kid.  (B)  A character becomes so popular that they become important to the medium... Batman's popularity is important to the medium, Kangaroo Man's lack of popularity makes him less important.  But if they make a movie of Kangaroo Man, and it's hugely successful AND DC then goes on to make Kangaroo Man an integral part of its universe, and thousands of collectors start trying to find his 1st app., and he remains integral from now on (not just a passing fad) then eventually that 1st app. will be considered a key issue.

The DC version?

[Hollywood1892]

4 minutes ago, newshane said:

I cannot even guess the book based on your acronym...so I'm going to go ahead and say it's not a key.  

People have different definitions, but I see the start of Image Comics, or maybe the "death" of Superman, as the birth of the Modern Era. 

Generally, anything in the 80s is Copper. 

Edge of Spiderverse 002 fa Spidergwen

While we are at it, Thanos 13 fa Ghostrider

Ultimate Fallout 4 Fa Miles Morales

[newshane]

1 minute ago, Hollywood1892 said:

Edge of Spiderverse 002 fa Spidergwen

While we are at it, Thanos 13 fa Ghostrider

Ultimate Fallout 4 Fa Miles Morales

I guess my response to your question is: only time will tell. 

 

[Bookery]

2 minutes ago, FlyingDonut said:

The DC version?

I was assuming that DC would gobble up the rights since Great Publications is no longer extant.  But yep... that's the character I was thinking of!

[F For Fake]

When I was coming up, the accepted definition of "key" seemed to be along the lines of "any book that has some significance that would make it worth breaking out individually in OSPG". That could be a first appearance, or the first work of a major talent, or a classic cover, etc. If there was something that made one book more desirable/popular/expensive (take any or all of those meanings as you see fit. One usually leads to the other) than the other books around it in a run, then it was a "key". That's why there are "run collectors" and "key collectors". Some people want the full runs of a series, others just want the "significant" books. 

Definitions change over time. I can't count how many discussions we've had about "what makes a key". It has become clear over the years that you're never going to get everyone on these boards, much less the entire collecting community, to agree on a firm definition. Therefore, there will never be a true "right" or "wrong" answer. BUT, we can definitely agree that we have a pretty good idea.

In the current market, everything is about tv and movie spec, therefore, at this time in the hobby, "keys" are largely attached to the first appearances of characters who are appearing in other media. That's just how it is. I may not like it, but there's no point in denying it. Eventually this bubble will pop, and keys may go back to being centered around story, talent attached to the books, etc. Or maybe they won't? Who cares?

[FlyingDonut]

1 hour ago, TwoPiece said:

That's ironic...

Movies/TV shows do not make keys.

This list is off the top of my head in 30 seconds. I'm sure I can get more. These books exploded in value and have become keys in the marketplace with continued value and desire solely because of continued movie/TV output.

1. Detective Comics 140/Batman 171: First Riddler, first Silver Age Riddler
2. Batman Adventures 12: First Harley
3. Walking Dead 1: First Rick Grimes, first Walking Dead
4. Tales to Astonish 13: First Groot
5. Incredible Hulk 271: "First" Rocket
6. Iron Man 55: First Thanos
7. Marvel Premiere 4: First Star-Lord

again, that's just off the top of my head....and for those who argue Iron Man 55, what's the difference between Thanos and Darkseid? Nothing...except Thanos was the bad guy in a 22 movie arc that grossed $20 billion in ticket sales.

[Hollywood1892]

2 minutes ago, newshane said:

I guess my response to your question is: only time will tell. 

 

Good point.

Ultimate fallout and Edge are about 4 years old,but Thanos 13 is only a year old,and its increased quite a bit for such a young book.

Immortal Hulk and Avenging Spiderman are pretty hot too.

[Bookery]

8 minutes ago, FlyingDonut said:

Not to be a total tool here, but I'll take his word (an Overstreet advisor and a guy who runs an extraordinarily successful comic store) over yours.

Thanks.  But... in the fullness of accuracy, I have never been an Overstreet advisor (never sent them any market reports).  But I have written 3 guides to pulps (3rd one in process), and like comics, they have "key" issues too.

[FlyingDonut]

5 minutes ago, Bookery said:

I was assuming that DC would gobble up the rights since Great Publications is no longer extant.  But yep... that's the character I was thinking of!

I ACTUALLY OWN THIS BOOK. 

Please for the love of all that is holy, make a Kangaroo Man movie.

[theCapraAegagrus]

5 minutes ago, FlyingDonut said:

This list is off the top of my head in 30 seconds. I'm sure I can get more. These books exploded in value and have become keys in the marketplace with continued value and desire solely because of continued movie/TV output.

1. Detective Comics 140/Batman 171: First Riddler, first Silver Age Riddler
2. Batman Adventures 12: First Harley
3. Walking Dead 1: First Rick Grimes, first Walking Dead
4. Tales to Astonish 13: First Groot
5. Incredible Hulk 271: "First" Rocket
6. Iron Man 55: First Thanos
7. Marvel Premiere 4: First Star-Lord

again, that's just off the top of my head....and for those who argue Iron Man 55, what's the difference between Thanos and Darkseid? Nothing...except Thanos was the bad guy in a 22 movie arc that grossed $20 billion in ticket sales.

Books that rely on "mainstream attention" for maintained value are not "keys". They're popular books. Real keys will always have unrelated value.

Feel free to disagree, say I'm "high", and call yourself a tool. Up to you.

Edited May 17, 2019 by TwoPiece
Changed "hot" to popular.

[FlyingDonut]

3 minutes ago, Bookery said:

Thanks.  But... in the fullness of accuracy, I have never been an Overstreet advisor (never sent them any market reports).  But I have written 3 guides to pulps (3rd one in process), and like comics, they have "key" issues too.

hmm I thought you were.

Well, the second part holds true. Bookery Fantasy is a pretty nice store, all things considered. Whenever I'm in Dayton (the garden spot of the Midwest!) I make a point to travel over there.

[shadroch]

Perhaps if we knew Two Pieces background, we could make some sense of his unusual beliefs. I know that between Donut, Bookery and myself, we have well over a hundred years of dealing with comics and a tad of experience in determining what books are key.

Perhaps Two Piece can tell us his experience and why he thinks his knowledge is superior to ours.

[theCapraAegagrus]

11 minutes ago, shadroch said:

Perhaps if we knew Two Pieces background, we could make some sense of his unusual beliefs. I know that between Donut, Bookery and myself, we have well over a hundred years of dealing with comics and a tad of experience in determining what books are key.

Perhaps Two Piece can tell us his experience and why he thinks his knowledge is superior to ours.

What makes my standard for a key unusual? That would be my first question.

Of the 'definitions' I've read, it appears some of you are calling currently in-demand books "keys" for nothing other than rising stock. That would not appear to be a reasonable definition for "key" from my perspective.

Avengers Vol. 4 #12 is hot right now because of Stark wielding the Infinity Stones. That does not make it a key book, does it?

[newshane]

35 minutes ago, shadroch said:

Perhaps Two Piece can tell us his experience and why he thinks his knowledge is superior to ours.

I still have him on ignore. Please fill me in. 

[Kramerica]

21 hours ago, Hollywood1892 said:

The price of fantastic 4 49 in 9.8 is more valuable than if 48 and 48 is the fa of silver surfer and galactus 

 

21 hours ago, Kon_Jelly said:

It's not, here's the actual listing showing the two books:

 

Ignore the 9.8, because the data isn't there. Look at the prices below the book titles. 

FF #49 in high grade should be worth a whole lot more than FF #48 in my opinion. #48 is a "warehouse" book and - correct me if I'm wrong - there were literally thousands of NM and better copies of this book sitting around untouched up until the 1990's. Mile High must have had 2,000+ plus. That's how I got mine. FF #49 was not a warehouse find and is a lot harder to find in HG. I haven't checked the census but the population counts of #48 in 9.0 or better has to be significantly higher than #49 and I'm sure that circulation numbers are about the same. I worked in a couple comic stores and FF #48 was always around but #49? Not so much. And #48 is a Galactus cameo - last page only whereas #49 is the first true, full appearance of Galactus. And compare the covers too....#48 is  whereas #49 is classic and iconic.