Modern Keys...a list?
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If he ever answers me, I will.

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Posted (edited)
6 minutes ago, Kramerica said:

FF #49 in high grade should be worth a whole lot more than FF #48 in my opinion. #48 is a "warehouse" book and - correct me if I'm wrong - there were literally thousands of NM and better copies of this book sitting around untouched up until the 1990's. Mile High must have had 2,000+ plus. That's how I got mine. FF #49 was not a warehouse find and is a lot harder to find in HG. I haven't checked the census but the population counts of #48 in 9.0 or better has to be significantly higher than #49 and I'm sure that circulation numbers are about the same. I worked in a couple comic stores and FF #48 was always around but #49? Not so much. And #48 is a Galactus cameo - last page only whereas #49 is the first true, full appearance of Galactus. And compare the covers too....#48 is meh whereas #49 is classic and iconic. 

There are 42 9.8 Fantastic Four #48 on the CGC Census. There is 1 Fantastic Four #49 in 9.8 grade.

666 9.0+ FF #48s. 197 9.0+ FF #49s.

Edited by TwoPiece

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7 minutes ago, Kramerica said:

And #48 is a Galactus cameo - last page only whereas #49 is the first true, full appearance of Galactus. And compare the covers too....#48 is meh whereas #49 is classic and iconic. 

A list Villain appearances rarely have as much value as A list hero appearances.  The bump to Iron Man #55 didn't benefit as much to the movie as the bump we've seen from Fantastic Four #48.  And that's not even a confirmed movie/appearance for Silver Surfer yet.

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A "key" book has almost always determined by sales and its content and rarely by creative personnel (1st Byrne, McFarlane....). But ever since the 1st Spider-Man movie AND the internet introduced themselves within a few years of each other, movies 100% began to determine what becomes a key from that point forward. Like it, love it or be downright curmudgeonly about it, print media has taken a nose dive while battling new forms of media.

Now, the content of the book alone won't determine what's "hot" or what's a "key". The kid down your street who ran around town and bought up all the Thor #337's in town won't be owning a key book based on the comic alone. He'll need validation from outside the medium: social media and "likes" and a documented price surge on eBay. And most importantly: The Announcement. The announcement from Marvel, or DC or Image or Netflix, Amazon, etc, etc that Foreskin Man is being developed as a major motion picture or cable TV series. Storylines and even visual cues in a movie that refer or harken back to a comic in the past will light up that comic. Everyone will have to have it! Not just comic fans! Exposure from outside the medium will likely determine what becomes a "key" book in the 21st Century. Again, you can yell at the neighborhood ruffians to get off your lawn as much as you want but the proof is there. Get with it you OG Marvel curmudgeons and start hoarding those Shang-Chi's, Howard the Duck's and Frog Thor's! You never know when just a teaser trailer is going to transform your drek into the next $100.00 bill!

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15 minutes ago, Kramerica said:

 

FF #49 in high grade should be worth a whole lot more than FF #48 in my opinion. #48 is a "warehouse" book and - correct me if I'm wrong - there were literally thousands of NM and better copies of this book sitting around untouched up until the 1990's. Mile High must have had 2,000+ plus. That's how I got mine. FF #49 was not a warehouse find and is a lot harder to find in HG. I haven't checked the census but the population counts of #48 in 9.0 or better has to be significantly higher than #49 and I'm sure that circulation numbers are about the same. I worked in a couple comic stores and FF #48 was always around but #49? Not so much. And #48 is a Galactus cameo - last page only whereas #49 is the first true, full appearance of Galactus. And compare the covers too....#48 is meh whereas #49 is classic and iconic. 

I agree,that cover to #49 is amazing.

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So, by your illogical and financially-tied 'definition' of "key", you're telling me that if Batman becomes an entirely unpopular character and #1 becomes worth a measly $10, it's not a key?

That's when you need to separate "value" from your perspective. Is Avengers Vol. 4 #12 a key, or not?

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3 minutes ago, TwoPiece said:

So, by your illogical and financially-tied 'definition' of "key", you're telling me that if Batman becomes an entirely unpopular character and #1 becomes worth a measly $10, it's not a key?

That's when you need to separate "value" from your perspective. Is Avengers Vol. 4 #12 a key, or not?

I'll chime in here uninvited because it's a slow day at work.

At this moment, no, I wouldn't call it a key. It's only been hot for, what, 3 weeks? It's a hot book right now, nothing more.

However, if the book continues to sell at a premium above its contemporaries in a year, in two years, in five years, etc.; if it is a book that people continue to seek out individually; then yes, it has become a key, because it has maintained a significance above the other books in the run.

Personally, I think that book, and Thor 390, etc will start deflating pretty soon, if they haven't already. But time will tell.

And again, this is all my opinion. Which may be similar or different from yours (and I think we're on the same page with your given example). But it doesn't make either of us wrong or right because it is ALL opinion driven, which means there can never be a true, absolute wrong or right definition of "key". The best we can ever do is a general consensus in the hobby. Someone is always going to disagree.

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2 hours ago, newshane said:

This is a solid list of modern keys. There are NOT that many true modern keys.

Wrong. But there aren't many at the same level as (some of) those on that list.

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1 hour ago, FlyingDonut said:

This list is off the top of my head in 30 seconds. I'm sure I can get more. These books exploded in value and have become keys in the marketplace with continued value and desire solely because of continued movie/TV output.

1. Detective Comics 140/Batman 171: First Riddler, first Silver Age Riddler
2. Batman Adventures 12: First Harley
3. Walking Dead 1: First Rick Grimes, first Walking Dead
4. Tales to Astonish 13: First Groot
5. Incredible Hulk 271: "First" Rocket
6. Iron Man 55: First Thanos
7. Marvel Premiere 4: First Star-Lord

again, that's just off the top of my head....and for those who argue Iron Man 55, what's the difference between Thanos and Darkseid? Nothing...except Thanos was the bad guy in a 22 movie arc that grossed $20 billion in ticket sales.

This post is completely :censored: insane.

Yes, the movie/TV adaptations affected the prices, but to say none of them were key before that? :facepalm::facepalm::facepalm:

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5 minutes ago, F For Fake said:

I'll chime in here uninvited because it's a slow day at work.

At this moment, no, I wouldn't call it a key. It's only been hot for, what, 3 weeks? It's a hot book right now, nothing more.

However, if the book continues to sell at a premium above its contemporaries in a year, in two years, in five years, etc.; if it is a book that people continue to seek out individually; then yes, it has become a key, because it has maintained a significance above the other books in the run.

Personally, I think that book, and Thor 390, etc will start deflating pretty soon, if they haven't already. But time will tell.

And again, this is all my opinion. Which may be similar or different from yours (and I think we're on the same page with your given example). But it doesn't make either of us wrong or right because it is ALL opinion driven, which means there can never be a true, absolute wrong or right definition of "key". The best we can ever do is a general consensus in the hobby. Someone is always going to disagree.

Idk. Seems like some fogeys are dead-set on me being wrong. I appreciate the discussion. I don't put "value" in the definition of "key". Spawn #1 is a bonafide key. I don't see how you could debate otherwise (I won't discourage you from it). It's not that expensive other than the Mint/Gem Mints (which are mostly expensive regardless of "key").

I firmly disagree that $$$$$ = key. Maybe "key investment if you can buy for cheap". Not true key for importance/collecting/etc.

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Posted (edited)
12 minutes ago, Take Off Eh said:

Has anyone on this board actually read the Cosmic Ghost Rider stuff? You speculators better hope not, because he is one of the stupidest characters the House of Recycled Ideas has ever "created".  It's a ham-fisted attempt at a "Cosmic Deadpool" and it falls flat badly.  His jokes aren't funny, he looks ridiculous, and there's no reason to like the character. Pure marketing BS,  a manufactured collectible character like Spider Gwen or Silk. Fanboys beware!

Thanos 13 = not a key.

I actually tweeted it. 

"I don't think it will last."

Don Cates tweets back "Don't think what will last?"

Me "Cosmic Ghostrider. I think two failing franchises (Ghostrider,Punisher) merged together to resurrect them"

DONNY CATES (@Doncates) tweeted at 9:22 p.m. on Thu., Mar. 21, 2019:
Can’t see what lasting?
(https://twitter.com/Doncates/status/1108901832087273472?s=03)

Get the official Twitter app at https://twitter.com/download?s=13

I figured you wanted proof.

Edited by Hollywood1892
Proof

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4 minutes ago, TwoPiece said:

So, by your illogical and financially-tied 'definition' of "key", you're telling me that if Batman becomes an entirely unpopular character and #1 becomes worth a measly $10, it's not a key?

That's when you need to separate "value" from your perspective. Is Avengers Vol. 4 #12 a key, or not?

It is. And will continue to be, probably more so in the future. Value will settle back down as supply and demand shift but its status as a key will remain. That time when Tony Stark/Iron Man wielded the IG long before the movie? Legendary.

And in my comment I'm not referring to $$$ as much as I am to the book - high prices or not - becoming a "key" book. And I'm not saying that a movie appearance will make a book a "key" and keep it there. Whiplash and Iron Man 2 is the first that come to mind. It was never a key book and didn't become one with Iron Man 2. And there are plenty of instances where a key book has the value drained out of it and it remains a key. Particularly when a movie has failed to deliver on the "hype" that it generated. All of the advance publicity for Fantastic Four 2 transformed FF #57-60 into "must have key books." When the movie failed miserably these books took a nosedive in value and settled back to exactly what they were - not keys, not semi-keys - just a classic storyline. Same with FF #72-77. Iconic (in the case of #72) and classic? Yes. Keys? Not so much.

Value is part of the equation. But what I'm saying is that movies and social media - from 2001 on - will be the driving factor that transforms a book into a key. Sure, there will be a handful of cases where a book may become a key without exposure outside the medium but that's few and far between. And in those cases you can bet that the key in question will become a Netflix series or movie storyline. And that will raise awareness and drive the book farther into key status. 

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If I was on Jeopardy, and "definitions" for $1000 was "Key", my answer would be:

"What is 'extremely or crucially important', Alex."

I don't find Avengers Vol. 4 #12 to fit that definition in the slightest. I find the money-inspired opinions to be completely false.

Movies, TV shows, and speculation causes demand and inflation. Doesn't magically transform a comic into a key.

If Professor Hulk farts in Avengers 5, does the comic in which Hulk was drawn farting become a key? No, it doesn't. Will it increase in demand, and consequentially, price? Probably. It would never be a key.

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Guys, if we hype up a book enough on social media (raising awareness), it will become a key for a specific period of time!

Think of the $$$$$ we could help each other earn!

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1 minute ago, TwoPiece said:

If I was on Jeopardy, and "definitions" for $1000 was "Key", my answer would be:

"What is 'extremely or crucially important', Alex."

I don't find Avengers Vol. 4 #12 to fit that definition in the slightest. I find the money-inspired opinions to be completely false.

Movies, TV shows, and speculation causes demand and inflation. Doesn't magically transform a comic into a key.

If Professor Hulk farts in Avengers 5, does the comic in which Hulk was drawn farting become a key? No, it doesn't. Will it increase in demand, and consequentially, price? Probably. It would never be a key.

But Tony Stark wielded the Infinity Gauntlet and in doing so he gave his life saving the Earth. Now, that time when he first did this in the comics? I think it's a key. Most here will probably disagree. (I think the entire Avengers & New Avengers runs by Bendis were classic to begin with - a point on which most here will disagree, if in fact they've read it).

But I also think the book has serious legs too. Down the road it will probably remain there as it was the first time that Tony wielded the IG - an act that was immortalized onscreen in the biggest movie ever with the MCU MVP (and Robert Downey, Jr will win that best actor Oscar - Hollywood loves a comeback story.) giving his life to save the Earth.

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9 minutes ago, TwoPiece said:

Guys, if we hype up a book enough on social media (raising awareness), it will become a key for a specific period of time!

Think of the $$$$$ we could help each other earn!

I mean...that's how most of the market works these days. FB groups, spec sites, shills, colluding to push books up. A concerted effort. Some of it is genuine, but there's definitely a lot of shenanigans these days, and always, really.

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5 minutes ago, Kramerica said:

But Tony Stark wielded the Infinity Gauntlet and in doing so he gave his life saving the Earth. Now, that time when he first did this in the comics? I think it's a key. Most here will probably disagree. (I think the entire Avengers & New Avengers runs by Bendis were classic to begin with - a point on which most here will disagree, if in fact they've read it).

But I also think the book has serious legs too. Down the road it will probably remain there as it was the first time that Tony wielded the IG - an act that was immortalized onscreen in the biggest movie ever with the MCU MVP (and Robert Downey, Jr will win that best actor Oscar - Hollywood loves a comeback story.) giving his life to save the Earth.

We just have to agree to disagree at this point, because we fundamentally disagree on the premise of comic book keys. Obviously, I'm not going to change your mind, and you're not going to change mine.

To me, it makes 0 sense that another media can magically influence the nature of a comic book key.

I actually just bought the complete run of Bendis' Avengers Vol. 4, so I'll be reading it soon.

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1 minute ago, F For Fake said:

I mean...that's how most of the market works these days. FB groups, spec sites, shills, colluding to push books up. A concerted effort. Some of it is genuine, but there's definitely a lot of shenanigans these days, and always, really.

I was mocking "demand = key". :sumo:

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48 minutes ago, TwoPiece said:

 Spawn #1 is a bonafide key.

 

What makes Spawn #1 a key?

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11 minutes ago, seanfingh said:

What makes Spawn #1 a key?

1st appearance of Sp-are you trolling me? lol

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