WHY Hulk #181 is more valuable than #180 0

[Prince Namor]

I keep seeing this discussed here and there over the years and occasionally I'll state WHY, but then still see it discussed. There is a very legitimate reason why Hulk #181 is more valuable than #180...

IH #180 is the first appearance of Wolverine (last panel cameo). But it's not as valuable on the open market as the first FULL appearance of Wolverine, which is #181. 

People always seemed to be more attracted to #181 and that was the issue they sought out. And it has to do with how much different the hobby was in 1974 through 1986 than it is now. For one thing, no one even considered an advertisement as a first appearance, and there wasn’t a Previews to go through...

So let’s say you picked up a copy of IH #180 and #181 in July of 1974. Both issues came out in the same month on the newsstand, so publication numbers should have been about the same. That’s not a FACT, but if anything influenced the unscientific reasoning behind publishers print totals of the day - the time of year - was one of those things. And both of these issues came out in the same month - July.

Now, let’s say you lent the copy to your cousin who lives an hour and a half down the highway. That’s a MILLION miles away to a 13 year old. So you’ve lost them forever. But man, you thought that Wolverine character was kinda cool.

The following spring (April of 1975) you pick up Giant Size X-Men #1  off the newsstand and you see Wolverine. Wow! He’s a part of the new X-Men team! Cool!

Now keep in mind - there is no trade paperback you can get for Hulk #180-181 at this time. If you missed (or in this case, lost) those issues - there was no way to read it. No reprint was available. It would not be reprinted for the first time in any form - that I’m aware of - until 1986 (#180 and #181 were reprinted for the first time in 1986 as a stand alone comic) - 12 years after they were first published!

There was no internet - at least not for general use - and the idea of a ‘digital’ file sounded like something out of a spy movie. The concept didn’t exist for comics.

BUT you start reading the new X-Men series and you think… I WANT to go back and read about when this character first appeared - it was different then - collectors were READERS - you wanted to READ about Wolverine’s first appearance… so which issue would you buy?

You’d buy #181. Because that’s the actual STORY of his first appearance.

In 1974-1986 (and longer) the majority of comic book ‘collectors’ were readers, first and foremost. It isn’t like today where the majority of comic book ‘collectors’ are sellers. Collectors READ and kept their books. The regular collection of reprints and trade paperback was still 25+ years away.

THIS is why, #181 is more popular than #180. It grew out of a natural collecting process built around readership. Not speculation.

There’s no shortage of #180. There’s more #181’s on the census because it’s a more valuable book to get graded. There was no real speculation at the time compared to today. DEALERS at some point figured it out, I’m sure (if they were good), but they almost certainly went by DEMAND, and that demand was from ‘collectors’ who were - READERS - and they chose #181.

 

Note: There were hoarders and speculators out there even in 1974, 1975 - but they were much, much, fewer and farther between. Today... it seems the majority of anyone collecting is a hoarder and speculator...

[divad]

Great analysis Chuck, let me see if I can add anything to that. As a full-on collector by 1974, I had no concept of hoarding or speculating comics. I was addicted to buying them and reading them. I had never bought more than one copy of any issue until just about that time - the summer of 1974. I had just finished my freshman year at college, and resumed my job at the local drugstore. Positioned as I was, I started to stash two copies of every title - one to read and one to put away. Honestly, that had never occurred to me before then. Only in my first year of college did I actually make friends who also collected comics. Before then, it was a purely personal and private pursuit. I certainly did not have any idea that someday they would be worth anything (but to me.)  And Hulk 180 and 181 were just another couple of books in The Incredible Hulk run, a character I always liked from the beginning, but frankly, at the time it seem to be dog-paddling. It didn't seem to be relevant in any way, and although not dying, it didn't fly off the shelves. I think the drugstore actually returned copies of both issues to the distributor.

IIRC, It also took me a couple of months to get around to reading them. No big deal - Wolverine didn't change my enthusiasm either way for the title. I continued to buy and collect comics through college, and I think the last book I actively bought was in 1979. From there on, I lost focus (because of various life developments) and didn't buy or much look at another title, or look at my collection either for that matter . . . until 1995. So comics were a big part of my life from 11 to 22, but not much after that. In fact, I had moved to California in late 1979, and left my collection at my parents' house. They retired to Florida in '95 and I had to ship a bunch of my stuff out of the house just before the move, including my comic collection. It wasn't until the internet came along to widespread use and eBay popped up that I took notice of what books were selling for - 6 years later in 2001. 

I saw copies of of IH 181 selling for upwards of $1,800 on eBay. YIKES! I knew I had at least one copy of the book from my hand-written inventory of my collection. My daughter was born in 2000, and to say the least we needed a little extra cash, so I went down to the "basement" (which wasn't really a basement because it was a California house) and pulled out a big old trunk of comics.  There were 2 copies of each in plastic bags (no boards). So we cashed in. My wife till says to this day, "Don't you have any more copies of Hulk 181?"

[Lazyboy]

But I'm more interested in WHY this thread is in the Copper Age forum.

[Prince Namor]

LOL... good point! Maybe one of the mods will be paying enough attention to move it!

[RockMyAmadeus]

3 hours ago, Chuck Gower said:

Now keep in mind - there is no trade paperback you can get for Hulk #180-181 at this time. If you missed (or in this case, lost) those issues - there was no way to read it. No reprint was available. It would not be reprinted for the first time in any form - that I’m aware of - until 1986 (#180 and #181 were reprinted for the first time in 1986 as a stand alone comic) - 12 years after they were first published!

That's an important point that a lot of newer readers and collectors don't understand, in this era of instant "at your fingertips" availability of just about everything.

From the 30s to the 70s...Silver Age Marvel being the lone exception...comics were not serialized. If you picked up the latest issue, you could enjoy it, without needing to know "what went before" (with a few rare exceptions.) Even the reprints of the 60s weren't vital...except for Marvel. Marvel's serialization of the 60s and 70s changed that. Continuity became important. 

But if you missed Hulk #181, and didn't have access to a store, or a convention, or even mail order, you were out of luck. The first reprint of Hulk #181 came in 1986, as Chuck mentioned. Now, it's been reprinted a hundred different ways, but then...not so much. It would have been reprinted in Marvel Super Heroes #129...but that series was cancelled with issue #105, reprinting Hulk #157.

It was tough out there to find stories you missed, especially for folks in non-metropolitan areas.

[waaaghboss]

People consider ads as first appearances now?

Comic speculation is just getting silly   Although I just got the first appearance of the beagle boys, and after reading it, they appear in exactly 1 panel of the book.  So I guess if you consider WDC 134 the first appearance of the beagle boys, then hulk 180 should be the first wolvie. 

 

And rockmyamadeus is spot on.  I started reading late 80's/early 90's, and paying over cover price for a book wasnt so much that I wanted to collect it, but that I really wanted to read it and that was usually the only way how.

Edited May 20, 2019 by waaaghboss

[GeeksAreMyPeeps]

21 hours ago, waaaghboss said:

People consider ads as first appearances now?

Comic speculation is just getting silly   Although I just got the first appearance of the beagle boys, and after reading it, they appear in exactly 1 panel of the book.  So I guess if you consider WDC 134 the first appearance of the beagle boys, then hulk 180 should be the first wolvie. 

 

And rockmyamadeus is spot on.  I started reading late 80's/early 90's, and paying over cover price for a book wasnt so much that I wanted to collect it, but that I really wanted to read it and that was usually the only way how.

Hulk 180 *is* the first Wolvie; it's just not the more desirable book to the average collector.

And the other point explains why the hobby has changed so much. A well-written run had value for all books in the run when I was growing up. Those Claremont/Byrne X-Men were always out of my price range. Until Classic X-Men came along, the only way to read any of those stories was to buy all of the books. Whether you wanted to collect them or just read them, everyone was in the same market.

[mrwoogieman]

I like having this thread in Copper. Gotta loosen it up a little around here!

 

[HarrisonJohn]

On ‎5‎/‎19‎/‎2019 at 2:47 PM, Chuck Gower said:

I keep seeing this discussed here and there over the years and occasionally I'll state WHY, but then still see it discussed. There is a very legitimate reason why Hulk #181 is more valuable than #180...

IH #180 is the first appearance of Wolverine (last panel cameo). But it's not as valuable on the open market as the first FULL appearance of Wolverine, which is #181. 

People always seemed to be more attracted to #181 and that was the issue they sought out. And it has to do with how much different the hobby was in 1974 through 1986 than it is now. For one thing, no one even considered an advertisement as a first appearance, and there wasn’t a Previews to go through...

So let’s say you picked up a copy of IH #180 and #181 in July of 1974. Both issues came out in the same month on the newsstand, so publication numbers should have been about the same. That’s not a FACT, but if anything influenced the unscientific reasoning behind publishers print totals of the day - the time of year - was one of those things. And both of these issues came out in the same month - July.

Now, let’s say you lent the copy to your cousin who lives an hour and a half down the highway. That’s a MILLION miles away to a 13 year old. So you’ve lost them forever. But man, you thought that Wolverine character was kinda cool.

The following spring (April of 1975) you pick up Giant Size X-Men #1  off the newsstand and you see Wolverine. Wow! He’s a part of the new X-Men team! Cool!

Now keep in mind - there is no trade paperback you can get for Hulk #180-181 at this time. If you missed (or in this case, lost) those issues - there was no way to read it. No reprint was available. It would not be reprinted for the first time in any form - that I’m aware of - until 1986 (#180 and #181 were reprinted for the first time in 1986 as a stand alone comic) - 12 years after they were first published!

There was no internet - at least not for general use - and the idea of a ‘digital’ file sounded like something out of a spy movie. The concept didn’t exist for comics.

BUT you start reading the new X-Men series and you think… I WANT to go back and read about when this character first appeared - it was different then - collectors were READERS - you wanted to READ about Wolverine’s first appearance… so which issue would you buy?

You’d buy #181. Because that’s the actual STORY of his first appearance.

In 1974-1986 (and longer) the majority of comic book ‘collectors’ were readers, first and foremost. It isn’t like today where the majority of comic book ‘collectors’ are sellers. Collectors READ and kept their books. The regular collection of reprints and trade paperback was still 25+ years away.

THIS is why, #181 is more popular than #180. It grew out of a natural collecting process built around readership. Not speculation.

There’s no shortage of #180. There’s more #181’s on the census because it’s a more valuable book to get graded. There was no real speculation at the time compared to today. DEALERS at some point figured it out, I’m sure (if they were good), but they almost certainly went by DEMAND, and that demand was from ‘collectors’ who were - READERS - and they chose #181.

 

Note: There were hoarders and speculators out there even in 1974, 1975 - but they were much, much, fewer and farther between. Today... it seems the majority of anyone collecting is a hoarder and speculator...

I agree. I said in another thread where this came up, if pre-internet a kid went into a store and asked for the first appearance of Wolverine, it would be mean to sell him 180 as the kid most likely wants to read Wolverine's first story, not "omg I must own the first time Wolverine appears on a page be it an ad or a one panel introduction because I collect these random things". Something else I remember from reading back then, is that if you liked a character, their first appearance was often referenced in editor's notes (where there was an * telling you what issue was being referenced) which, of course, would make you want to read that issue.

Now that these stories and character information are easily accessible in trades, or even Wikipedia, these seems to be confusion about why these issues are sought after, and why it is not about the LITERAL first appearance in the form of an ad or shadow.

Edited May 29, 2019 by HarrisonJohn

[divad]

But 180 is more than the last page - the Hulk is in Canada fighting Wendigo! and then Mr. Wolverine pops up - context, baby context.

 

[divad]

On 5/19/2019 at 5:41 PM, RockMyAmadeus said:

It was tough out there to find stories you missed, especially for folks in non-metropolitan areas.

[Prince Namor]

13 hours ago, HarrisonJohn said:

I agree. I said in another thread where this came up, if pre-internet a kid went into a store and asked for the first appearance of Wolverine, it would be mean to sell him 180 as the kid most likely wants to read Wolverine's first story, not "omg I must own the first time Wolverine appears on a page be it an ad or a one panel introduction because I collect these random things". Something else I remember from reading back then, is that if you liked a character, their first appearance was often referenced in editor's notes (where there was an * telling you what issue was being referenced) which, of course, would make you want to read that issue.

Now that these stories and character information are easily accessible in trades, or even Wikipedia, these seems to be confusion about why these issues are sought after, and why it is not about the LITERAL first appearance in the form of an ad or shadow.

Yep, and even Marvel paved the way for fans by determining in Wolverine's first X-Men story, where to go to previously read about him...

[WolverineX]

Also, 181 had Wolvie on the cover too.