Captain America #1 (CGC 9.4) 5 5

[tth2]

8 hours ago, G.A.tor said:

Someone would have to correct me if I’m wrong but I believe John told me it took several subs to get the Allentown into a 9.8. He implied he had it pressed but never specifically told me 

I really really really love this hobby!

[tth2]

8 hours ago, Crowzilla said:

So it's kind of like "three weeks a ago, I thought this was a 9.6, last week I thought this was a 9.6, but now that I am looking at if for the 3rd time it is quite clearly a 9.8"?

Or is it just a case of: now that we've collected $15K in grading fees instead of a mere $5K, we'll go ahead and give you a better grade

All of the above.

[tth2]

5 hours ago, G.A.tor said:

Does make you wonder. I had a book pressed 8.0 to 8.5. 

After a while , seeing it in 8.5 holder It was suggested it needed to be pressed, so hopeful for a 9.0 I agreed. Came back 8.5 again. 

A year later suggested I press it. Sure, why not. Got a 8.5 again. So sometimes books look like a press will fix but it doesn’t. And then maybe it might. Don’t know. 

Not enough whining to CGC. 

[batman_fan]

24 minutes ago, tth2 said:

I'm still waiting for a dealer to tell me "The label says 9.4, but the book looks like it's only a 9.0, so tell you what, I'll sell it to you at a 9.0 price."

  Good luck with that.

[G.A.tor]

46 minutes ago, tth2 said:

Not enough whining to CGC. 

guess I could give it a try

[N e r V]

2 hours ago, tth2 said:

Not enough whining to CGC. 

It’s not called whining these days.

It’s called protesting...

[Badger]

On 5/23/2019 at 11:43 AM, sfcityduck said:

As for value, I'm not seeing where the bidder whose going to pay more than $1M for this comic is coming from.  

No Timely comic book has sold at auction for more than $350,000.  Harriri, who has been driving the record comic prices recently, is a DC guy.  

Here's the UNIVERSAL census:

9.8 - 1 (Allentown)

9.4 - 1 (San Francisco)

9.2 - 2

9.0 - 1

The highest price paid for a CA 1 was $343,057.00 at ComicConnect in 2011.  A 7.5 sold in 2018 on ComicConnect for $257,333.00.  

The only Marvel comics to top $500,000 are two copies of AF 15 (9.6 at $1.1M in 2011 and 9.4 at $704K in 2017).  

I would not bet that this comic will top $1M.

 

 

 

 

I agree that it is a generous 9.4 but it is a 9.2 in my opinion (from picture for what that is worth). Still, I disagree. Timely is hot right now. Its crazy and Cap is leading the charge. I feel safe in saying it will hit 1 million.

[Primetime]

1 hour ago, Badger said:

I agree that it is a generous 9.4 but it is a 9.2 in my opinion (from picture for what that is worth). Still, I disagree. Timely is hot right now. Its crazy and Cap is leading the charge. I feel safe in saying it will hit 1 million.

Timelys are always hot 

[Mmehdy]

11 hours ago, Primetime said:

Timelys are always hot 

This one is for the last 5 years, if this cracks the 1Mil level it will gain even higher respect. I agree it is not a strong 9.4 maybe even a high 9.2 on the grade, still a great copy

[Cat-Man_America]

16 hours ago, Badger said:

I agree that it is a generous 9.4 but it is a 9.2 in my opinion (from picture for what that is worth). Still, I disagree. Timely is hot right now. Its crazy and Cap is leading the charge. I feel safe in saying it will hit 1 million.

True, and you've touched on the shakiest vulnerability of the whole third party grading process.  In fact, depending on where one takes a stand on this issue, it's either the Achilles heel or third rail of professional grading.  

The biggest issue that should concern collectors about professional grading in general is the potential impact of disputable grades on both realized profits and market stability.  If a 9.2 copy would fetch 750k and a 9.4 arrives with the expectation of a cool million plus, then the discrepancy leaves precious little room for error and plenty of room for mischief.  Debatable judgment calls on books in this league require more intense scrutiny due to seller profits and the increased business third party grading companies benefit from.  

Note: No accusations of anyone playing favorites are being cast here (this is merely a discussion point), but it's fair to say most folks are aware of instances where grade bumps have occurred and flaws overlooked or minimized to the benefit or expense of one or more high grade books.  It's the reason top tier books ...especially those competing with highest graded copies... demand much greater oversight than mid-grade copies typically receive.  As always, mileage varies.  This is just my two cents on a very discussion-worthy topic, inflation adjusted. 

Edited May 25, 2019 by Cat-Man_America

[GACollectibles]

On 5/24/2019 at 1:11 PM, telerites said:

Such label fixation and analness.

Er, welcome to comic collecting!

[tth2]

4 hours ago, Cat-Man_America said:

True, and you've touched on the shakiest vulnerability of the whole third party grading process.  In fact, depending on where one takes a stand on this issue, it's either the Achilles heel or third rail of professional grading.  

The biggest issue that should concern collectors about professional grading in general is the potential impact of disputable grades on both realized profits and market stability.  If a 9.2 copy would fetch 750k and a 9.4 arrives with the expectation of a cool million plus, then the discrepancy leaves precious little room for error and plenty of room for mischief.  Debatable judgment calls on books in this league require more intense scrutiny due to seller profits and the increased business third party grading companies benefit from.  

Note: No accusations of anyone playing favorites are being cast here (this is merely a discussion point), but it's fair to say most folks are aware of instances where grade bumps have occurred and flaws overlooked or minimized to the benefit or expense of one or more high grade books.  It's the reason top tier books ...especially those competing with highest graded copies... demand much greater oversight than mid-grade copies typically receive.  As always, mileage varies.  This is just my two cents on a very discussion-worthy topic, inflation adjusted. 

This issue was heatedly debated at length more than 10 years ago on these Boards.  

That battle has been over for many years now.  The crackers and the pressers won an overwhelming victory, so overwhelming that CGC has had its own in-house pressing/resubbing service for quite a while now.

It's no coincidence that comic original art has taken off in the period after the crackers and pressers won.  Many dis-illusioned comic collectors moved to something that was comic-related but did not hinge on a subjective opinion that seemed to be more and more arbitrary and more and more subject to manipulation.  I'm not saying that OA doesn't have its own dirty issues, but at least grading is not one of them.

[Badger]

5 hours ago, Cat-Man_America said:

True, and you've touched on the shakiest vulnerability of the whole third party grading process.  In fact, depending on where one takes a stand on this issue, it's either the Achilles heel or third rail of professional grading.  

The biggest issue that should concern collectors about professional grading in general is the potential impact of disputable grades on both realized profits and market stability.  If a 9.2 copy would fetch 750k and a 9.4 arrives with the expectation of a cool million plus, then the discrepancy leaves precious little room for error and plenty of room for mischief.  Debatable judgment calls on books in this league require more intense scrutiny due to seller profits and the increased business third party grading companies benefit from.  

Note: No accusations of anyone playing favorites are being cast here (this is merely a discussion point), but it's fair to say most folks are aware of instances where grade bumps have occurred and flaws overlooked or minimized to the benefit or expense of one or more high grade books.  It's the reason top tier books ...especially those competing with highest graded copies... demand much greater oversight than mid-grade copies typically receive.  As always, mileage varies.  This is just my two cents on a very discussion-worthy topic, inflation adjusted. 

Your paragraph contains a germ of a great idea: books sent in for the same day tier require 3 of 5 graders to agree on the grade before assignment.  Could also be 2 of 3 or something similar.  They used to do this but when TAT slipped CGC modified the number of graders that looked at a book. We should get back to this at least on expensive books.

[Crowzilla]

21 hours ago, Primetime said:

Timelys are always hot 

I bought my first cap in the late 80s and it was over guide, the best collection of Caps I ever purchased was in the mid 90s and they all sold quickly for over guide. Has there ever been a time when Caps didn't sell for 1.5x guide (at a minimum) or more? One of the strange things Overstreet hasn't been able to correct in 40 years.

[Crowzilla]

1 hour ago, tth2 said:

 

That battle has been over for many years now.  The crackers and the pressers won an overwhelming victory, so overwhelming that CGC has had its own in-house pressing/resubbing service for quite a while now.

So wouldn't it be easier if they just told you - "Hey, we will grade this a 9.8 when we finish, but the value will go up so much that we don't think $5K covers what we are bringing to the table, so why don't you pay us for 3 resubs now and we'll call it even."

[Primetime]

2 minutes ago, Crowzilla said:

I bought my first cap in the late 80s and it was over guide, the best collection of Caps I ever purchased was in the mid 90s and they all sold quickly for over guide. Has there ever been a time when Caps didn't sell for 1.5x guide (at a minimum) or more? One of the strange things Overstreet hasn't been able to correct in 40 years.

For sure. All the Caps were 1.5x+ in the 90s when I was looking. Finally got a Cap 4 and 34 (D copy) and they were over guide. 

[Cat-Man_America]

4 hours ago, tth2 said:

This issue was heatedly debated at length more than 10 years ago on these Boards.  

That battle has been over for many years now.  The crackers and the pressers won an overwhelming victory, so overwhelming that CGC has had its own in-house pressing/resubbing service for quite a while now.

It's no coincidence that comic original art has taken off in the period after the crackers and pressers won.  Many dis-illusioned comic collectors moved to something that was comic-related but did not hinge on a subjective opinion that seemed to be more and more arbitrary and more and more subject to manipulation.  I'm not saying that OA doesn't have its own dirty issues, but at least grading is not one of them.

Far from it because the value of high grade books has increased dramatically over the past 10 years, ...victory lap notwithstanding.  You're right about OA being popular and having it's own issues, but heated debate over pressing and resubmission of comics has never subsided, not really. What's been done can't be undone, that's true enough, but this could begin a discussion about reexamining the value of books graded prior to the crack & press culture, Newton Rings and billboard labels.  IOW, views toward books that haven't been resubmitted yet as part of the bump merry-go-round.  

Why shouldn't a graded book that hasn't been futzed with three or four times be more desirable to collectors than recently graded copies of the same book with a bumped opinion?  If it's about the book and not the grade on the label, wouldn't older grading be more desirable to collectors bidding in auctions? Opinions?   

Sorry 'bout getting off the beaten path discussing the San Francisco Cap #1 (let's just call this the path less taken).  

[tth2]

4 hours ago, Crowzilla said:

So wouldn't it be easier if they just told you - "Hey, we will grade this a 9.8 when we finish, but the value will go up so much that we don't think $5K covers what we are bringing to the table, so why don't you pay us for 3 resubs now and we'll call it even."

Sean Sean Sean, there are appearances to be kept and motions to go through. 

[tth2]

23 minutes ago, Cat-Man_America said:

Far from it because the value of high grade books has increased dramatically over the past 10 years, ...victory lap notwithstanding.

Sure, but you can attribute that to a lot of factors, including the sheer flood of liquidity that has been coursing through the economy for about 10 years now that has caused all asset prices, including comics, to skyrocket.  One could argue that the value of high grade books would be even higher today if the scarcity of many high grade books had not been diluted by CGC's practices.

26 minutes ago, Cat-Man_America said:

but this could begin a discussion about reexamining the value of books graded prior to the crack & press culture

There is a group of collectors who prize old label slabs on the basis that they are more likely (not guaranteed, but more likely) to be unpressed and/or resubbed, but they tend to be ridiculed by the majority who don't want the market to make any distinction between pressed/resubbed books and non-pressed/resubbed books.

[sartrexpress]

On 5/24/2019 at 1:11 PM, telerites said:

 

I  own the Denver 9.4 and the Allentown Cap 3 9.6.... I have no intension of selling either nor did I ever. The Cap 1 I bought from Manning Auctions in the early days of CGC as a 9.0. John had put it up for sale after he bought the Allentown Cap 1. The Denver had a very small light crease on the upper back cover , it was intact pressed at Chicago Con twice from a 9.2 then tried again at the Con till the crease came out to a 9.4. In defense of my book, it's extremely sharp, I wouldn't call the Allentown far superior but if its like the Cap 3 Allentown I own I would expect its fresh gloss to outweigh the Denver that way but not in structure. I have not seen the San Francisco copy but looking at the scan, it doesn't seem to have the structural integrity of the Denver at least as per the scans. John had always said the Denver copy was the second best copy as the Mile High had color touch and was not in the same league.  

Edited May 26, 2019 by sartrexpress