Captain America #1 (CGC 9.4)
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11 hours ago, GACollectibles said:

Er, welcome to comic collecting!

Dang, nearly 50 years of comic collecting and I have been doing it wrong this whole time.  :cry:  Me, dumb newb.

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Posted (edited)
On 5/23/2019 at 10:21 AM, sfcityduck said:

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Here's Gator's picure from the CA1 v. Bat1 thread:

4539099E-3BFB-4874-A87F-CC016EBD61B9.jpeg

Looking at these 2 images of the exact same book makes me wonder what the real colors are like on the actual book itself?  ???

If I was the potential winner here (that'll never be the day lol) and I had bid high 6-figures or possibly even touching near 7-figures based upon the Heritage scan and the book arrived looking like Gator's picture :p , needless to say, I would definitely not be very happy.  :censored:  :mad:

Is that Rick's lousy handiwork with using a camera or did he simply borrow the one from CC that they use to take all of the darkened and crappy pictures for their auction lots?  lol

BTW:  With that blown up Heritage scan, it definitely does not appear to be similar to other CGC 9.4 graded copies of books that I have seen.  hm

Edited by lou_fine

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On 5/23/2019 at 10:26 AM, sfcityduck said:

And here's my questions:

(1) I sort of think its a generous 9.4 based on the heritage picture (left corners top and bottom, ), anyone else agree?

Oh, thank goodness as I thought it was just me only.  (thumbsu

I've always had this theory about grading when it comes to non-pedigree versus the long established brand name pedigree books and the theory goes like this:

Graders are prone to go on the downside if they are unsure or in between grades on a non-pedigree book just to show that they are a tougher (i.e. more accurate) grader.  When it comes to a brand name pedigree book though, I believe they give them the benefit of the doubt and go towards the upside.  Especially when they are unsure or in between grades because they are simply more intimidated by the pedigree itself and don't want to be seen as not knowing how to grade.  hm

 

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On 5/24/2019 at 9:32 AM, sfcityduck said:

The "inflation" of the Denver grade from 9.0 to 9.2 (post-press) to 9.4 might explain why the SF is being graded a 9.4 (in my mind generously). 

And if the scale used by CGC for CA 1 is so soft, then it seems that a much better book that looks two increments better than the "9.4s" (if that is what the Allentown is) deserves a 9.8 even if it really should be a 9.6 (and the 9.4s should be 9.2s). 

Sounds as though you don't buy the theory or CGC's story that they simply grade the book that's in front of them then?  hm

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Posted (edited)
28 minutes ago, lou_fine said:

Looking at these 2 images of the exact same book makes me wonder what the real colors are like on the actual book itself?  ???

If I was the potential winner here (that'll never be the day lol) and I had bid high 6-figures or possibly even touching near 7-figures based upon the Heritage scan and the book arrived looking like Gator's picture :p , needless to say, I would definitely not be very happy.  :censored:  :mad:

Is that Rick's lousy handiwork with using a camera or did he simply borrow the one from CC that they use to take all of the darkened and crappy pictures for their auction lots?  lol

BTW:  With that blown up Heritage scan, it definitely does not appear to be similar to other CGC 9.4 graded copies of books that I have seen.  hm

it appears that in reality the book could be in between, Photo not that great and Ha tweaks it....my guess somewhere in the middle. Still an amazing book....

Edited by Mmehdy

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5 minutes ago, lou_fine said:

Sounds as though you don't buy the theory or CGC's story that they simply grade the book that's in front of them then?  hm

I still hope there is transparency in CGC grading and with CGC as a whole but some incidents do make you wonder.  The thought has also crossed my mind that it benefits CGC or any grading company to see a book that it has graded obtain a high(est) realized price when sold.  They may not know when it will sell but when and if it does for books like this, that grading label is part of the comic image.  Great advertising.  I haven't opened an OSPG in a long time but didn't CGC have ads showing/comparing sold prices of some books that were raw and CGC graded copies at similar grades?  

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Posted (edited)
On 5/24/2019 at 10:53 AM, Crowzilla said:
On 5/24/2019 at 10:36 AM, G.A.tor said:

Someone would have to correct me if I’m wrong but I believe John told me it took several subs to get the Allentown into a 9.8. He implied he had it pressed but never specifically told me 

So it's kind of like "three weeks a ago, I thought this was a 9.6, last week I thought this was a 9.6, but now that I am looking at if for the 3rd time it is quite clearly a 9.8"?

Or is it just a case of: now that we've collected $15K in grading fees instead of a mere $5K, we'll go ahead and give you a better grade

Sean;

If you have the answers to the following questions, I believe you would have the answers to you own questions up above:

1)  Who is the king of the pressers and had been in the pressing business for over 2 decades and is now in charge of CGC grading;

2)  If you know the answer to Question #1 above, any chance that CGC's undisclosed grading standards would have shifted somewhat to target certain defects more; and

3)  If you are CCG which is a business entity, would you want to make money on a product only one time or make money on selling the exact same item as many times as you can?

Gee, maybe we should have progressive pressing like introductory pressing, intermediate pressing, advanced pressing, and then final pressing.............but let's not tell anybody about it like how we kept the original pressing under the table for those first 5 years before we were caught with our pants and undies down around our ankles.  lol  hm  (tsk)

Edited by lou_fine

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On 5/24/2019 at 6:49 PM, tth2 said:

Man I love this hobby! 

 

On 5/24/2019 at 6:49 PM, tth2 said:

I really freally freaking love this hobby!

Man I hate boardies like you who always sit on the fence!

I just wish you would come out from under your blanket and tell us how you really feel.  lol

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Posted (edited)
22 hours ago, Cat-Man_America said:

Note: No accusations of anyone playing favorites are being cast here (this is merely a discussion point), but it's fair to say most folks are aware of instances where grade bumps have occurred and flaws overlooked or minimized to the benefit or expense of one or more high grade books.  It's the reason top tier books ...especially those competing with highest graded copies... demand much greater oversight than mid-grade copies typically receive.  As always, mileage varies.

With respect to these so-called top tier and competing highest graded copies of books, should it also not be the responsibility of potential bidders to pay much greater due diligence to the books and what they are bidding on before actually bidding on them?  hm

Then again, it's easy for collectors like me to say since I definitely don't play in this deep end of the pool.  Plus the fact that I also would never pay up for a label knowing all of the shenanigans that takes place with respect to grading.

To each, their own...........but I've always prefer the theory of "buy the book, not the label" when it comes to my bidding.  (thumbsu

Of course, that could also explain why I very seldom ever win anything. :cry:

Edited by lou_fine

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2 hours ago, lou_fine said:

Sean;

If you have the answers to the following questions, I believe you would have the answers to you own questions up above:

1)  Who is the king of the pressers and had been in the pressing business for over 2 decades and is now in charge of CGC grading;

2)  If you know the answer to Question #1 above, any chance that CGC's undisclosed grading standards would have shifted somewhat to target certain defects more; and

3)  If you are CCG which is a business entity, would you want to make money on a product only one time or make money on selling the exact same item as many times as you can?

Gee, maybe we should have progressive pressing like introductory pressing, intermediate pressing, advanced pressing, and then final pressing.............but let's not tell anybody about it like how we kept the original pressing under the table for those first 5 years before we were caught with our pants and undies down around our ankles.  lol  hm  (tsk)

Transaction based business models are always the best where you act as a middle man and take a cut of the transaction.  Now how does CGC base their pricing for grading and pressing hm

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2 hours ago, lou_fine said:

Looking at these 2 images of the exact same book makes me wonder what the real colors are like on the actual book itself?  ???

If I was the potential winner here (that'll never be the day lol) and I had bid high 6-figures or possibly even touching near 7-figures based upon the Heritage scan and the book arrived looking like Gator's picture :p , needless to say, I would definitely not be very happy.  :censored:  :mad:

Is that Rick's lousy handiwork with using a camera or did he simply borrow the one from CC that they use to take all of the darkened and crappy pictures for their auction lots?  lol

BTW:  With that blown up Heritage scan, it definitely does not appear to be similar to other CGC 9.4 graded copies of books that I have seen.  hm

Both scans are arguably "off" color-wise.  I suspect the culprit is the CGC "billboard" label.  The color of the label pops at the expense of the book because it's so near the surface of the holder.  It probably forces whoever is in charge of imaging Heritage scans to figure out a way to make the comic book images as bold or bolder than CGC's advertising billboard, ...excuse me, label.

The way this appears to have been done ...and it's purely speculation on my part as I don't have access to Heritage's scanner to cross-reference the settings... is by boosting the color saturation, brightness and white level while tweaking the contrast enough to maintain satisfactory black levels.  Sharpness also seems bumped up (probably via clarity and shadow removal settings).  HA scans look like they've been imaged with lid closed using a solid white backing.  

The end result is an oversaturated color palette for the book with the CGC label's blue changing hue from dark blue to pale blue. Notice that the subtle lighter blue CGC trademark imprinted in the center of the label, seen clearly in the darker scan.  It almost disappears in the brighter image.

This is a rescan of a recent HA win from my HP scanner...

Spoiler

edited-image_zpsyxcvvzr1.png

To get a fair representation of this book in hand it was necessary to adjust settings in the Photo-bucket Editor after scanning the book.  Notice how the label still overwhelms the book, but the colors appear uniform and accurate.  What I think Heritage has been attempting to do is make CGC graded books pop color-wise while walking back the hyper-emphasized, overpowering label.  While I'll give HA props for a noble effort, there's obviously a trade off that results in excessive color saturation.  If I can dig up the original Heritage scan of this book, I'll edit it into this post for comparison.

Back on point, the only way CGC could make these labels more unmissable would be to add Braille bumps.  

 

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4 hours ago, lou_fine said:

Looking at these 2 images of the exact same book makes me wonder what the real colors are like on the actual book itself?  ???

Was this sarcasm? Pretty sure Gator has no reason to misrepresent the book, whereas heritage has all the rea$on$ in the world to...

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Gator's pic is not a scan.  It's an iphone in one hand, book in the other.  His wasn't meant for accuracy, I don't think.  Remember, just 2 months ago he reported getting a scanner.  

:nyah:

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6 minutes ago, szav said:

Was this sarcasm? Pretty sure Gator has no reason to misrepresent the book, whereas heritage has all the rea$on$ in the world to...

The Denver Cap #1 originally was purchased at Greg Manning and was considered the second best Cap #1 at 9.0 .. years later other lesser copies were subsequently graded 9.2's.. I brought the Denver to a Chicago Con about 6 years ago where it was regraded by CGC twice from a 9.2 to a 9.4. I have never seen the SF Cap #1 but looking at the scans the corners look a little soft. I also own the Allentown Cap 3 which does have more brilliant gloss and color than the Denver Cap 1 so I would assume the Allentown Cap 1 beats the Denver in that respect. The Denver though has extremely sharp corners and a perfect spine. 

6 minutes ago, szav said:

Was this sarcasm? Pretty sure Gator has no reason to misrepresent the book, whereas heritage has all the rea$on$ in the world to...

 

cap 1 9.4 v.jpg

Cap 3 9.6_editedv-2.jpg

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Question:  Does anyone know for sure the history of the SF Cap #1?

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Man.  Imagine owning the 9.4 Denver Cap 1 and having people on it.  

 

And about the pictures of the SF.  HA takes pictures, not scans.  The other picture is from Halperin.  Drawing conclusions from either is silly.  

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1 hour ago, szav said:

Was this sarcasm? Pretty sure Gator has no reason to misrepresent the book, whereas heritage has all the rea$on$ in the world to...

Definitely not a dig at Gator's intent, as I assume it was either a quick picture of the book or a picture of a picture which never produces the best result.

As for Heritage's scan or picture, I think it basically speaks for itself or probably not.  lol

Should probably look up the definition for "potentially misleading" based upon the many recurring comments I read here about their image color accuracy or rather inaccuracy. hm

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1 hour ago, GreatCaesarsGhost said:

Gator's pic is not a scan.  It's an iphone in one hand, book in the other.  His wasn't meant for accuracy, I don't think.  Remember, just 2 months ago he reported getting a scanner.  

:nyah:

Gee, and I thought he might have been borrowing CC's camera or scanner to take the picture since the images for many of their auction lots, shall we say, seems to leave a lot to be desired at times. 

Sometimes, the difference seems to be like night and day when you look at a scan from CC as compared to Heritage.  Relatively speaking, sometimes almost like they took them in a darkened basement with the lights turned off for good measure.  :ph34r:  lol

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34 minutes ago, Chaos_in_Canada said:

sastre's CA1 (Denver)+AV4+CA100 :golfclap:

CA1(94ow)+AV4(96oww)+CA100(98w)-sastreCGC.jpg

Now that's a group shot! :flipbait:

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