Captain America #1 (CGC 9.4)
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49 minutes ago, sfcityduck said:

Your make reasonable points.  But, all we have to base an opinion upon is the scans and the CGC grades.  The page quality on the SF is ow/w and the Denver is ow, so that supports your conclusion that the SF is better "preserved" than the Denver.  But, I'm focused on the sharpness of the book (which of course is impacted by handling since the 1973 discovery, so the general "shape" of SF books is a guide not a guarantee), not the page quality.  The scans do seem to showt that the left upper and lower corners of the SF are not nearly as sharp as the Denver (and we have the owner of the Denver confirming that).  So, while I recognise that I am just voicing an opinion, I'm comfortable in that opinion based on the only evidence I have access to.  I don't think anyone is going to get to do a side by side with the Denver unless the Denver owner is in the hunt.  

But, don't get me wrong.  The SF is a beautiful book.  No shame in second or third best.  Won't get the same frenzy that the Allentown would generate, which is why I'm bearish on $1M.  

Others can reasonably disagree, such as you have done.  As I said above, I lose bets.

First let me say that I am by no means trying to bash either book, just making a point. Here is the scan of the Denver provided by Sartre...

1348840934_cap19_4v.jpg.55cba19342fd2e48

I am not sure how you are able to compare corner sharpness with any accuracy based on this scan. The pages are not visible at all to show if any blunting has occurred. The angle of the scan actually makes all of the corners appear rounded, but that is probably an optical illusion. The  way the paper appears to show at the bottom could indicate that fanning of the interior is present, maybe a slight spine roll? The bottom left corner shows some white which could indicate an abrasion or scuff. I have no way of knowing for certain if any of this is true. Sartre can confirm.

What sartre cannot confirm is whether his copy is better or worse than the San Fransisco. He has never had both copies side by side, other than by scan.

20997799%5D%26call=url%5Bfile:product.ch

Just comparing the scans an argument could be made that the San Fransisco is much better. It has better colors (and before someone screams "It's because of the scan"  that is my point entirely), the staple placement is better on the SF, the Denver has a slight dust shadow at the top, the SF has a truer color strike (look at the white areas in the red striping in the logo, particularly next to each A).

All I am trying to say is that before you can say one is definitely better than the other you need to have more proof than just the scans or the opinion of one of the owners who has a huge dog in the hunt.

 

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15 hours ago, Gotham Kid said:
20 hours ago, sfcityduck said:

Yep.  Your Denver looks much sharper than the SF.  

Maybe you can go back to Heritage and get them to elevate you to that empty 9.6 slot?  It seems that the grading on this book is all about relative grades, not objective grades.

Why not ? It worked for the other guy. Throw in a good whine et voilà, 9.6.

Well, as the old saying goes...................two wrongs don't make a right.  Or, in this case, is it three?  lol

:idea:  I wonder what would happen if they go back and have a redo on all 3 books based upon their current undisclosed grading standards, as opposed to having a relative grade-off against each other which appears to possibly what happened here.

You never know, there might be no empty slot to fill as you could have one CGC 9.2, one CGC 9.4, and one CGC 9.6 copies.  hm

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Since we are talking about the Denver pedigree here, does anybody have an idea of exactly what books are in this pedigree?  hm

Just wondering since there it is supposedly a relative small pedigree with only 151 books or thereabouts in there, which makes it the second smallest major pedigree to the Allentown Collection which is comprised of only 135 books.  Does anybody know if all or most of the Timely and DC #1 issues would be in the Denver?  I believe there are some Fox #1 issues that are part of the Denver Collection.

It's too bad they never ever got around to finishing off that Pedigree Book which they had talked about for the longest while.  :frown:

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8 minutes ago, lou_fine said:

Since we are talking about the Denver pedigree here, does anybody have an idea of exactly what books are in this pedigree?  hm

Just wondering since there it is supposedly a relative small pedigree with only 151 books or thereabouts in there, which makes it the second smallest major pedigree to the Allentown Collection which is comprised of only 135 books.  Does anybody know if all or most of the Timely and DC #1 issues would be in the Denver?  I believe there are some Fox #1 issues that are part of the Denver Collection.

It's too bad they never ever got around to finishing off that Pedigree Book which they had talked about for the longest while.  :frown:

It is first issues from most publishers, Fox, Quality, Ace, Centaur (I had the Man Of War #1 years ago), Timely, etc.

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14 minutes ago, MrBedrock said:
25 minutes ago, lou_fine said:

Since we are talking about the Denver pedigree here, does anybody have an idea of exactly what books are in this pedigree?  hm

Just wondering since there it is supposedly a relative small pedigree with only 151 books or thereabouts in there, which makes it the second smallest major pedigree to the Allentown Collection which is comprised of only 135 books.  Does anybody know if all or most of the Timely and DC #1 issues would be in the Denver?  I believe there are some Fox #1 issues that are part of the Denver Collection.

It's too bad they never ever got around to finishing off that Pedigree Book which they had talked about for the longest while.  :frown:

It is first issues from most publishers, Fox, Quality, Ace, Centaur (I had the Man Of War #1 years ago), Timely, etc.

Yes, just went back to the Pedigree Book website and it states that there's a total of 153 books in the entire collection.  (thumbsu

The only ones they listed in their meagre write-up was the All-Select 1, GL #1, and Sensation #1.  So, I assume those 3 should probably be pretty nice copies or representative of the books within the Denver collection.  Although it looks like the later Centaurs are there like your Man Of War #1, I doubt many of the early Centaur #1's would be in there since it states that the collection runs only from 1938 through to 1944.  hm

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13 minutes ago, lou_fine said:

 

The only ones they listed in their meagre write-up was the All-Select 1, GL #1, and Sensation #1.  So, I assume those 3 should probably be pretty nice copies or representative of the books within the Denver collection.  

According to Rob's site, the collection includes:

* Batman 1 sold for $70K in 2001 as a "NM".

* Detective 1 sold for $90K (no grade given) in 1995 (I wonder if this is the stolen Cage copy?).

* Flash 1 CGC 8.5.

* MC 1 CGC 9.0.

 

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2 minutes ago, sfcityduck said:

According to Rob's site, the collection includes:

* Batman 1 sold for $70K in 2001 as a "NM".

* Detective 1 sold for $90K (no grade given) in 1995 (I wonder if this is the stolen Cage copy?).

* Flash 1 CGC 8.5.

* MC 1 CGC 9.0.

 

The Bat 1 has a cleaned cover.  It resides in a 9.0 PLOD holder.

The MC #1 used to be an 8.5, but might have graduated to 9.0 somewhere along the way.

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5 minutes ago, sfcityduck said:

According to Rob's site, the collection includes:

* Batman 1 sold for $70K in 2001 as a "NM".

* Detective 1 sold for $90K (no grade given) in 1995 (I wonder if this is the stolen Cage copy?).

* Flash 1 CGC 8.5.

* MC 1 CGC 9.0.

 

I owned the Denver bm1 for a while. Beautiful book. Cgc did designate cover was cleaned. I think it’s in a 9.2 holder now. Would be a conserved slab if graded today. 

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1 minute ago, nearmint said:
4 minutes ago, sfcityduck said:

According to Rob's site, the collection includes:

* Batman 1 sold for $70K in 2001 as a "NM".

 

The Bat 1 has a cleaned cover.  It resides in a 9.0 PLOD holder.

Any idea if the Bat 1 was graded prior to CGC's change in their updated Restoration Grading Scale?  hm

Especially since cleaning, including both wet cleaning and solvent cleaning, has now apparently been moved out of the dreaded PLOD holder and into the much more acceptable Conserved holder.  (thumbsu

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Posted (edited)
2 minutes ago, lou_fine said:

Any idea if the Bat 1 was graded prior to CGC's change in their updated Restoration Grading Scale?  hm

 

Gator is psychic.  He answers before you ask the question.

Edited by sfcityduck

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Posted (edited)
3 minutes ago, lou_fine said:

Any idea if the Bat 1 was graded prior to CGC's change in their updated Restoration Grading Scale?  hm

Especially since cleaning, including both wet cleaning and solvent cleaning, has now apparently been moved out of the dreaded PLOD holder and into the much more acceptable Conserved holder.  (thumbsu

December of 2009 it was certified 9.0 PLOD with cleaned cover, but might have changed since then. 

Edited by nearmint

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5 minutes ago, nearmint said:
8 minutes ago, lou_fine said:

Any idea if the Bat 1 was graded prior to CGC's change in their updated Restoration Grading Scale?  hm

Especially since cleaning, including both wet cleaning and solvent cleaning, has now apparently been moved out of the dreaded PLOD holder and into the much more acceptable Conserved holder.  (thumbsu

December of 2009 it was certified 9.0 PLOD with cleaned cover, but might have changed since then. 

I guess that's why it's alright for Heritage to hire Mark Wilson now.  Especially since all of the books he "cleaned" have now been given the quasi-blue light of approval now. 

I guess if either CGC or Heritage hires Jason in the future, we'll know that near invisible micro-trimming is also good to go.  :insane:

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1 hour ago, lou_fine said:

Since we are talking about the Denver pedigree here, does anybody have an idea of exactly what books are in this pedigree?  hm

Don't you have a copy of the Official Comic Book Pedigree book yet Lou? It came out (never)! doh!

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5 minutes ago, drbanner said:
1 hour ago, lou_fine said:

Since we are talking about the Denver pedigree here, does anybody have an idea of exactly what books are in this pedigree?  hm

Don't you have a copy of the Official Comic Book Pedigree book yet Lou? It came out (never)! doh!

I am just glad I never bothered to give them the initial $50 deposit which they were asking from collectors in the beginning. :D

I guess the best person to know the details about the Denver pedigree would be Jim Payette since he seems to keep pretty good records for these kinds of things.  Similar hopefully to what he did for the Allentown Collection which had a detailed list of the individual books along with their grades at the time. (thumbsu

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Here's a smattering of the Denver books:

All-Flash Comics #1 CGC 9.4

All-Surprise Comics #1 CGC 8.5

Batman #1 CGC 9.0 PLOD

Big 3 #1 CGC 7.5

Blonde Phantom #1 CGC 9.4

Blue Bolt #1 CGC 7.0

Blue Ribbon Comics #1 CGC 9.4

Captain Battle #1 CGC 8.5

Catman Comics #1 CGC 9.2

Choice Comics #1 CGC 9.0

Classic Comics #1 CGC 8.5

Colossus Comics #1 CGC 9.0

Crack Comics #1 CGC 9.2

Crackajack Funnies #1 CGC 9.2, then CGC 9.4

Doc Savage #1 CGC 9.0

Doll Man #1 CGC 9.4

Funny Book #1 CGC 8.0

Giggle Comics #1 CGC 9.4

Ha Ha Comics #1 CGC 9.6

Hello Pal #1 CGC 6.5, then 7.5

Hopalong Cassiday #1 CGC 9.0, then CGC 9.2

Joe Palooka #1 CGC 8.5

Joker Comics #1 CGC 7.0

Krazy Komics #1 CGC 9.4

Marvel Comics #1 CGC 8.5

Master Comics #1 RAW 9.2

Movie Comics #1 CGC 9.0

Napolean & Uncle Elby #1 CGC 8.5

National Comics #1 CGC 8.0

Planet Comics #1 CGC 9.4

Ranger Comics #1 CGC 6.0

Real Funnies #1 CGC 9.0

Real Heroes Comics #1 CGC 7.0

Real Life Comics #1 CGC 9.2

Rex Dexter #1 CGC 8.5 PLOD

Rocket Comics #1 CGC 9.0

Samson Comics #1 8.5

Shadow Comics #1 CGC 7.0

Shield-Wizard #1 CGC 9.2, then CGC 9.6

Special Edition Comics #1 CGC 9.4

Super Spy #1 CGC 7.5

Tough Kid Squad #1 CGC 9.2 PLOD, then 8.5 BLUE

Wham Comics #1 CGC 9.4

World Famous Heroes Magazine #1 CGC 9.0

 

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dollman1.jpg

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4 minutes ago, nearmint said:

Here's a smattering of the Denver books:

All-Flash Comics #1 CGC 9.4

All-Surprise Comics #1 CGC 8.5

Batman #1 CGC 9.0 PLOD

Big 3 #1 CGC 7.5

Blonde Phantom #1 CGC 9.4

Blue Bolt #1 CGC 7.0

Blue Ribbon Comics #1 CGC 9.4

Captain Battle #1 CGC 8.5

Catman Comics #1 CGC 9.2

Choice Comics #1 CGC 9.0

Classic Comics #1 CGC 8.5

Colossus Comics #1 CGC 9.0

Crack Comics #1 CGC 9.2

Crackajack Funnies #1 CGC 9.2, then CGC 9.4

Doc Savage #1 CGC 9.0

Doll Man #1 CGC 9.4

Funny Book #1 CGC 8.0

Giggle Comics #1 CGC 9.4

Ha Ha Comics #1 CGC 9.6

Hello Pal #1 CGC 6.5, then 7.5

Hopalong Cassiday #1 CGC 9.0, then CGC 9.2

Joe Palooka #1 CGC 8.5

Joker Comics #1 CGC 7.0

Krazy Komics #1 CGC 9.4

Marvel Comics #1 CGC 8.5

Master Comics #1 RAW 9.2

Movie Comics #1 CGC 9.0

Napolean & Uncle Elby #1 CGC 8.5

National Comics #1 CGC 8.0

Planet Comics #1 CGC 9.4

Ranger Comics #1 CGC 6.0

Real Funnies #1 CGC 9.0

Real Heroes Comics #1 CGC 7.0

Real Life Comics #1 CGC 9.2

Rex Dexter #1 CGC 8.5 PLOD

Rocket Comics #1 CGC 9.0

Samson Comics #1 8.5

Shadow Comics #1 CGC 7.0

Shield-Wizard #1 CGC 9.2, then CGC 9.6

Special Edition Comics #1 CGC 9.4

Super Spy #1 CGC 7.5

Tough Kid Squad #1 CGC 9.2 PLOD, then 8.5 BLUE

Wham Comics #1 CGC 9.4

World Famous Heroes Magazine #1 CGC 9.0

 

A few others that exist, though I have no idea if they have been graded-

  • Sure Fire 1
  • Super Mystery 1
  • Miracle Comics 1
  • Green Mask 1
  • The Flame 1
  • Green Hornet 1
  • Crash 1

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23 minutes ago, MrBedrock said:
31 minutes ago, nearmint said:

Here's a smattering of the Denver books:

All-Flash Comics #1 CGC 9.4

All-Surprise Comics #1 CGC 8.5

Batman #1 CGC 9.0 PLOD

Big 3 #1 CGC 7.5

Blonde Phantom #1 CGC 9.4

Blue Bolt #1 CGC 7.0

Blue Ribbon Comics #1 CGC 9.4

Captain Battle #1 CGC 8.5

Catman Comics #1 CGC 9.2

Choice Comics #1 CGC 9.0

Classic Comics #1 CGC 8.5

Colossus Comics #1 CGC 9.0

Crack Comics #1 CGC 9.2

Crackajack Funnies #1 CGC 9.2, then CGC 9.4

Doc Savage #1 CGC 9.0

Doll Man #1 CGC 9.4

Funny Book #1 CGC 8.0

Giggle Comics #1 CGC 9.4

Ha Ha Comics #1 CGC 9.6

Hello Pal #1 CGC 6.5, then 7.5

Hopalong Cassiday #1 CGC 9.0, then CGC 9.2

Joe Palooka #1 CGC 8.5

Joker Comics #1 CGC 7.0

Krazy Komics #1 CGC 9.4

Marvel Comics #1 CGC 8.5

Master Comics #1 RAW 9.2

Movie Comics #1 CGC 9.0

Napolean & Uncle Elby #1 CGC 8.5

National Comics #1 CGC 8.0

Planet Comics #1 CGC 9.4

Ranger Comics #1 CGC 6.0

Real Funnies #1 CGC 9.0

Real Heroes Comics #1 CGC 7.0

Real Life Comics #1 CGC 9.2

Rex Dexter #1 CGC 8.5 PLOD

Rocket Comics #1 CGC 9.0

Samson Comics #1 8.5

Shadow Comics #1 CGC 7.0

Shield-Wizard #1 CGC 9.2, then CGC 9.6

Special Edition Comics #1 CGC 9.4

Super Spy #1 CGC 7.5

Tough Kid Squad #1 CGC 9.2 PLOD, then 8.5 BLUE

Wham Comics #1 CGC 9.4

World Famous Heroes Magazine #1 CGC 9.0

 

A few others that exist, though I have no idea if they have been graded-

  • Sure Fire 1
  • Super Mystery 1
  • Miracle Comics 1
  • Green Mask 1
  • The Flame 1
  • Green Hornet 1
  • Crash 1

Well, this is definitely very useful information as it looks like the listed grades of these 45 Denver's (including Cap 1 at 9.4) would work out to an average grade of 8.66, with a range from CGC 6.0 up to CGC 9.6.  Pretty much what I had expected since I was thinking an average grade of 8.5 even though there does seem to be a lot of CGC 9's+ in that list there.

 

I notice that the lists didn't include any of the 3 books that the Pedigree Book had mentioned in their little write-up:

2 hours ago, lou_fine said:

The only ones they listed in their meagre write-up was the All-Select 1, GL #1, and Sensation #1.

Wonder how those 3 highlighted Denver books would stack up against the rest of the group?  hm

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3 hours ago, MrBedrock said:

First let me say that I am by no means trying to bash either book, just making a point. Here is the scan of the Denver provided by Sartre...

1348840934_cap19_4v.jpg.55cba19342fd2e48

I am not sure how you are able to compare corner sharpness with any accuracy based on this scan. The pages are not visible at all to show if any blunting has occurred. The angle of the scan actually makes all of the corners appear rounded, but that is probably an optical illusion. The  way the paper appears to show at the bottom could indicate that fanning of the interior is present, maybe a slight spine roll? The bottom left corner shows some white which could indicate an abrasion or scuff. I have no way of knowing for certain if any of this is true. Sartre can confirm.

What sartre cannot confirm is whether his copy is better or worse than the San Fransisco. He has never had both copies side by side, other than by scan.

20997799%5D%26call=url%5Bfile:product.ch

Just comparing the scans an argument could be made that the San Fransisco is much better. It has better colors (and before someone screams "It's because of the scan"  that is my point entirely), the staple placement is better on the SF, the Denver has a slight dust shadow at the top, the SF has a truer color strike (look at the white areas in the red striping in the logo, particularly next to each A).

All I am trying to say is that before you can say one is definitely better than the other you need to have more proof than just the scans or the opinion of one of the owners who has a huge dog in the hunt.

 

So your saying to compare two books you should really look at them side by side, a novel idea but I think it may have some merit.  :baiting:

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there is also a Denver  Hyper Mystery 1

 

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