First Black Suit! 0

[RockMyAmadeus]

From its release until 1992-1993, no one considered anything other than ASM #252 to be the first appearance. Stores, collectors, everyone involved in comics at the time knew the facts, because they were there in 1984 when the events took place, and no one questioned it, because there was no reason to. 

You will find virtually no reference to the black costume for anything other than ASM #252, ASM #259 ("Spiderman back to old costume") and ASM #300 ("last black costume"), prior to Venom's 1992-1993 explosion in popularity. MTU #141 was a quarter book, PPSSM #90 was a quarter book, Secret Wars #8 was a quarter book. No one cared.

Unfortunately, when Venom got extremely popular, and everyone began looking for back issues, Overstreet got it in its head (because of Bob's infamous aversion to "modern" books) that Secret Wars #8 was, in fact, the actual first appearance of the symbiote...despite being the 20th or 25th appearance at that point. Because of that, the "new wave" of collectors and dealers, who hadn't been involved in 1984 when the books came out, believed it...and early formed memories are HARD to dislodge (as evidenced by all the people who swore up and down that Venom was "popular from his first appearance." He was not.)

(This is why misinformation sites are so damaging: people who don't know any better read misinformation and think it's true, to the point that it becomes ingrained into their minds, even if they rationally come to understand the facts later on. "Rarecomics", "Key Collector", "Recalled Comics", and a host of others casually and flippantly get information wrong, and can't be bothered to correct it...even going so far as to attempt to silence those who challenge their false information. Some are worse than others, but ultimately, any misinformation is bad. It is vastly more difficult to UNlearn misinformation than it is to learn correct information from the start.)

In any event, the "tie" idea came from CGC, which only goes by cover month, so it makes some sense to label that way...although, as mentioned before, it leads to confusion for people who don't have the whole picture. 

[Gaard]

Just curious...

When 252 came out, were people like "Where did this suit come from?"

[Crops068]

4 hours ago, RockMyAmadeus said:

From its release until 1992-1993, no one considered anything other than ASM #252 to be the first appearance. Stores, collectors, everyone involved in comics at the time knew the facts, because they were there in 1984 when the events took place, and no one questioned it, because there was no reason to. 

You will find virtually no reference to the black costume for anything other than ASM #252, ASM #259 ("Spiderman back to old costume") and ASM #300 ("last black costume"), prior to Venom's 1992-1993 explosion in popularity. MTU #141 was a quarter book, PPSSM #90 was a quarter book, Secret Wars #8 was a quarter book. No one cared.

Unfortunately, when Venom got extremely popular, and everyone began looking for back issues, Overstreet got it in its head (because of Bob's infamous aversion to "modern" books) that Secret Wars #8 was, in fact, the actual first appearance of the symbiote...despite being the 20th or 25th appearance at that point. Because of that, the "new wave" of collectors and dealers, who hadn't been involved in 1984 when the books came out, believed it...and early formed memories are HARD to dislodge (as evidenced by all the people who swore up and down that Venom was "popular from his first appearance." He was not.)

(This is why misinformation sites are so damaging: people who don't know any better read misinformation and think it's true, to the point that it becomes ingrained into their minds, even if they rationally come to understand the facts later on. "Rarecomics", "Key Collector", "Recalled Comics", and a host of others casually and flippantly get information wrong, and can't be bothered to correct it...even going so far as to attempt to silence those who challenge their false information. Some are worse than others, but ultimately, any misinformation is bad. It is vastly more difficult to UNlearn misinformation than it is to learn correct information from the start.)

In any event, the "tie" idea came from CGC, which only goes by cover month, so it makes some sense to label that way...although, as mentioned before, it leads to confusion for people who don't have the whole picture. 

This is the only part I disagree with.  The shop I bought both my SW #8 and ASM #252 from was selling comics from at the very least the mid-70s until they stopped sometime in the late 80s/early 90s.  They moved to only selling sports cards and still do.  They evidently did not know the facts as you put it.  And they advertised SW #8 as the 1st appearance.  I want to say I bought my #8 (along with the rest of SW) sometime in the 90s but couldn't tell you when.  And I bought my #252 in around 2010 from them, they only had it labeled "New Black Costume".  I know because I still have the printed price tag with the hand written info on it.

I do absolutely agree about misinformation. Even small it can create a seed of doubt.  Which is why I questioned the Rom placement.

[RockMyAmadeus]

5 minutes ago, Crops068 said:

This is the only part I disagree with.  The shop I bought both my SW #8 and ASM #252 from was selling comics from at the very least the mid-70s until they stopped sometime in the late 80s/early 90s.  They moved to only selling sports cards and still do.  They evidently did not know the facts as you put it.  And they advertised SW #8 as the 1st appearance.  I want to say I bought my #8 (along with the rest of SW) sometime in the 90s but couldn't tell you when.  And I bought my #252 in around 2010 from them, they only had it labeled "New Black Costume".  I know because I still have the printed price tag with the hand written info on it.

But were you dealing with the people who were actually around in 1984, and would have certainly remembered the brouhaha surrounding #252 (it was the biggest reaction to a Marvel comics for the entire decade; hard to miss if you lived through it) or were you dealing with people who had no direct experience with the event?

SW #8 came out a full 8 months after ASM #252, and no paid it any mind, nor would they for almost 9 years. It was only after Venom got hot that people thought about that book....and that would have been 1992-1993. Overstreet...from 1984 to 1992...mentioned not a peep about SW #8, but sometime in 1993-1994, someone got it into their heads that SW #8 was the "first appearance of the black costume"...which is where I imagine your store got it...and almost certainly by folks who weren't around when #252 came out.

As those who lived through it will attest (because some of them wrote their experiences down at the time), #252 was huge. It was the first sellout of an issue of ASM since #121-122, and the last such sellout until #361. By the time SW #8 came out...7 months later...the hysteria had died down, and the excitement over the black costume was over (except for #252, which would remain a key book in the series forever.) 

SW #8 is somewhere around the 20th or 25th appearance of the black costume. No one should be calling it the first appearance.

By the way...someone also got it into their heads that Web...which came out a full year after ASM #252...was the "4th appearance of the black costume." 

That is also, obviously, untrue.

[Crops068]

Just now, RockMyAmadeus said:

But were you dealing with the people who were actually around in 1984, and would have certainly remembered the brouhaha surrounding #252 (it was the biggest reaction to a Marvel comics for the entire decade; hard to miss if you lived through it) or were you dealing with people who had no direct experience with the event?

SW #8 came out a full 8 months after ASM #252, and no paid it any mind, nor would they for almost 9 years. It was only after Venom got hot that people thought about that book....and that would have been 1992-1993. Overstreet...from 1984 to 1992...mentioned not a peep about SW #8, but sometime in 1993-1994, someone got it into their heads that SW #8 was the "first appearance of the black costume"...which is where I imagine your store got it...and almost certainly by folks who weren't around when #252 came out.

As those who lived through it will attest (because some of them wrote their experiences down at the time), #252 was huge. It was the first sellout of an issue of ASM since #121-122, and the last such sellout until #361. By the time SW #8 came out...7 months later...the hysteria had died down, and the excitement over the black costume was over (except for #252, which would remain a key book in the series forever.) 

SW #8 is somewhere around the 20th or 25th appearance of the black costume. No one should be calling it the first appearance.

By the way...someone also got it into their heads that Web...which came out a full year after ASM #252...was the "4th appearance of the black costume." 

That is also, obviously, untrue.

Oh I was dealing with the owners of the shop as they are the only people that have ever worked there.

They have the oddest hours now, never open weekends anymore and like 9am-2pm during the week.  I have no idea how they stay in business honestly.

I lived through it, be it very young, but still through it.

That is comical, pun intended, about Web #1.

[RockMyAmadeus]

Ahhh, the days pre-internet, when accurate info was hard to come by, and encyclopedias were worth their weight in gold...

 

[Crops068]

Web #1 is one of my favorite Black Suit covers though, glad to know it is his 4th appearance....

[Crops068]

Just now, RockMyAmadeus said:

Ahhh, the days pre-internet, when accurate info was hard to come by, and encyclopedias were worth their weight in gold...

 

This is exactly why I think they were misinformed.  They were old in the 90s and they are still running this shop today.  I am beginning to think they are not human!

[WoWitHurts]

On 6/1/2019 at 5:04 PM, Gaard said:

Just curious...

When 252 came out, were people like "Where did this suit come from?"

It blew my mind as a 13 year old. I seem to remember SW #1 came out the same month as ASM 252 (or close together). It was a great marketing strategy. To me SW was huge. I used to buy my comics from a book store called The Book Emporium. Unfortunately, it was 6 miles away and the only way for me to get there was to ride my bike in the turning (middle) lane down a 4 lane highway. I would make that trek every week on my Race Inc. BMX bike. I wouldn't let the cashier put the books in a bag but rather did it myself. Then I would tuck in my t-shirt and put the bag underneath and ride as carefully as possible home. Of those books that I have since graded CGC 9.6 seems to be about where they all fall except for ASM 238,252, and SW 8 which graded out to CGC 9.8.

[ADAMANTIUM]

4 hours ago, WoWitHurts said:

It blew my mind as a 13 year old. I seem to remember SW #1 came out the same month as ASM 252 (or close together). It was a great marketing strategy. To me SW was huge. I used to buy my comics from a book store called The Book Emporium. Unfortunately, it was 6 miles away and the only way for me to get there was to ride my bike in the turning (middle) lane down a 4 lane highway. I would make that trek every week on my Race Inc. BMX bike. I wouldn't let the cashier put the books in a bag but rather did it myself. Then I would tuck in my t-shirt and put the bag underneath and ride as carefully as possible home. Of those books that I have since graded CGC 9.6 seems to be about where they all fall except for ASM 238,252, and SW 8 which graded out to CGC 9.8.

 wow, makes it worthwhile  

[obiedagod]

Small update: I got my first CGC graded Spider-Man #252, my 12th copy over all. 

Decided to read back through this thread, found it interesting how some people were saying that opinions didn't matter, then saying that it is obvious that 252 is the first appearance. (Which I agree with)

And yet, them saying this is them expressing their opinions. 

I found it interesting, though, that majority of people voted that #252 was the first appearance. When the book increases in value over time, that book will be the one that experiences the most growth.

I am glad I never bought a PPSM #90, though.

[RockMyAmadeus]

2 + 2...?

Still 4.

[Prince Namor]

On 6/17/2019 at 9:00 AM, WoWitHurts said:

It blew my mind as a 13 year old. I seem to remember SW #1 came out the same month as ASM 252 (or close together). It was a great marketing strategy. To me SW was huge. I used to buy my comics from a book store called The Book Emporium. Unfortunately, it was 6 miles away and the only way for me to get there was to ride my bike in the turning (middle) lane down a 4 lane highway. I would make that trek every week on my Race Inc. BMX bike. I wouldn't let the cashier put the books in a bag but rather did it myself. Then I would tuck in my t-shirt and put the bag underneath and ride as carefully as possible home. Of those books that I have since graded CGC 9.6 seems to be about where they all fall except for ASM 238,252, and SW 8 which graded out to CGC 9.8.

It did!

Secret Wars #1 came out January 24, 1984

Amazing Spider-man #252 came out January 31, 1984

Also:

Secret Wars #8 came out August 28th, 1984

Peter Parker, the Spectacular Spider-man #90 came out February 14, 1984

Marvel Team-Up #141 came out February 14, 1984

http://www.mikesamazingworld.com/mikes/features/newsstand.php?type=calendar&month=1&year=1984&publisher=marvel&sort=alpha&checklist=null

Edited November 15, 2019 by Chuck Gower

[Prince Namor]

On 6/1/2019 at 6:04 PM, Gaard said:

Just curious...

When 252 came out, were people like "Where did this suit come from?"

Oh yeah. It was a shock. 

They redid the Amazing Fantasy cover and blew us all away! It was a great way to advertise the Secret Wars storyline in their most popular comic... 

That costume though... Spidey's original costume is one of the most unique ever created, so some people really were vocally annoyed by it. I remember (as a long time Spidey purist even then) that it didn't bother me all that much. I was still glad when they brought back the original though.

 

[Logan510]

There was a ton of hype leading up to SW #8, I was actually collecting comics at the time and even though I'm not a noted comics historian I remember it well.

The hype was "this is the origin of the black costume finally!" and I still remember being somewhat disappointed when the issue finally arrived. I didn't hate it, but it was kind of "meh".