No More CGC Submissions for me 3 3

[RockMyAmadeus]

And one more time: properly done, pressing cannot be detected, because the fundamental structure of the paper has not changed. Is it restoration? Of course it is. Is it "purple label" restoration? No. Can you prove it's been done? Not when it's done properly. 

Trimming, on the other hand, can always be detected (whether it is or not is another story), because it actively changes the very structure of the paper.

It has nothing to do with ease of detection. It has to do with what has been done to the structure of the paper. 

 

[lou_fine]

3 minutes ago, RockMyAmadeus said:

Not sure what your driving at here, LF, but the thread's about grading...and that's what I'm referring to. I don't entirely disagree with your statements here about resto (nor do I entirely agree), but the thread isn't about resto and its detection.

I guess the only point I am getting at is that it is hard to separate grading from restoration in today's marketplace relative to the generally accepted standards that were in the hobby for decades prior to CGC opening its doors.

Especially when what was clearly deemed to be a restoration technique to enhance the appearance of a book in the past is now the go to technique to artificially improve the grade of a book in today's marketplace.  

I guess I am saying that it's quite a stretch to say that CGC was simply correctly applying the standards of the hobby that had been in place for decades.  From my point of view, they clearly were not and simply should have proactively inform the collecting base as to these changes.   Definitely not a problem that we don't see eye to eye on this particular issue, but it's always okay to agree to disagree on issues such as these. 

[RockMyAmadeus]

5 minutes ago, lou_fine said:

I guess I am saying that it's quite a stretch to say that CGC was simply correctly applying the standards of the hobby that had been in place for decades.

If we were discussing restoration. But we were just talking about grading. And in that sense, it's not a stretch at all. You know I'm more than happy to discuss the tangents, but in the context of this thread...which is just about the grading...then yes, CGC is applying the standards that the hobby developed over decades (and which is well documented in the Overstreet Grading Guide.)

We can argue about restoration and its application by CGC...and I get it, you're opposed to pressing....but that's not the topic of the thread, and my comments have to be interpreted in the context in which they were made.

[Supa-Bad-Mofo]

5 hours ago, lou_fine said:

+1

Sad to say, but this statement is very true based upon how books are currently being graded for the past few years under the present CGC regime.  

At the very minimum, collectors should be doing a pre-screen for pressing or otherwise, probably shouldn't even bother sending the book in at all.    

Yes, pre-screen at a minimum. 

5 hours ago, lou_fine said:

+1

I would 100% agree with your statement here.  

Especially in the case of the 80's regular newsstand books and newer which are relatively common and only have value in the uber HG conditions where pressing can mean a minute difference in grade, but a huge difference between a profit or loss on the book depending upon the number that shows up on the label. 

 

Definitely not so much the case with the older vintage collectible comic books where many of them will still garner multiples of condition guide in all grade levels right across the entire condition spectrum from CGC 0.5 and up. 

 

Especially in the case of the HTF or

classic cover books where it's so much more about just being able to acquire any copy of the book, as opposed to needing to find it with a particular label.  

While I agree with the large majority of what you're saying here,  I believe pressing should be universally applied if the books can handle the press. True, certain books can garner a premium in any grade, but why just settle for an unpressed grade when a press could gain a huge grade bump? In some cases, it wouldn't be a stretch to say there might be thousands of dollars in just a .5 grade bump, even at low grade. I had a 4.5 book CPR to a 6.5...it's worth it.

[Callaway29]

Pre-screen yourself. Not every book benefits from a press. If there's a judgement call, THEN pre-screen...IMO. Do people really pre-screen every book they submit? Maybe y'all are talking ultra high grade moderns (could see that), but my sweet spot is low-mid grade gold/silver and that's unnecessary....

So much for me boycotting...

Edited June 1, 2019 by Callaway29

[Supa-Bad-Mofo]

3 hours ago, Callaway29 said:

Pre-screen yourself. Not every book benefits from a press. If there's a judgement call, THEN pre-screen...IMO. Do people really pre-screen every book they submit? Maybe y'all are talking ultra high grade moderns (could see that), but my sweet spot is low-mid grade gold/silver and that's unnecessary....

So much for me boycotting...

Sure, you can pre-screen your own books, but then we get back into the subjective nature of the hobby. I can pre-grade my own books, too...but then we end up right back to the core topic of this thread..."I can grade better than CGC can". Yes, I send every book I submit to CPR...even if I think it looks new. If the pro decides it doesn't need a press, I will accept that. So far, I've only had 3 books out of 12 submitted in the last few months that didn't need a press...we're talking Silver to Moderns. Most of the ones pressed were cleaned as well. The 3 that weren't pressed were all 2014/2015 moderns I bought out of the box, before they hit the rack...1 9.8 and 2 9.6's. The rest were bronze age and older.

If you like low grade books, then pressing probably wouldn't be your thing. But, it's a misconception that low/mid grades can't benefit from a press. Like I said in the previous post, I had CGC 4.5 move to a CGC 6.5 with CPR. I would much rather have a sharp, flat 6.5 in my collection than  a creased, misaligned 4.5...but that just a personal choice. Some people don't agree with the CPR thing and hate the thought of a book being manipulated to "look" better. I'll admit that I didn't like it at all when CGC "blessed" pressing as a non-restorative technique...until I saw the results...I was hooked.

Rationally, I don't see why people don't CPR every higher value book. Any book with a value over $400 and under $1000 costs $65 to grade, plus at least $20 shipping both ways. If you grade one book, you have about $105 into it. Why not pay the $10 to $20 to have it CPR'd?  Most pro's will forward your books on to CGC after the work is done, so with shipping, you might have $40 into the CPR and shipping. If you uses CCS, the intermediate shipping charge is eliminated, but you'll pay more for pressing and wait a lot longer. CPR doesn't always guarantee a grade bump, but I would venture to guess most gain something and that means more value.

[Jeffro.]

[lou_fine]

17 hours ago, LordRahl said:

18 hours ago, lou_fine said:

Well, from my reading of their new Restoration Grading Scale, it would appear that they have now moved cleaning (both water & solvent) from the dreaded PLOD category into the much more accepted quasi blue/grey Conserved category.  

Of course, you would have to resubmit the old PLOD back into them in order to get the much more accepted quasi blue/grey slab and you know what that means.  Dig much further down into your pocket once again.     

Hmmm... I'm not entirely sure that the conserved category is any more acceptable than PLOD. The ones I've seen sell, including the one I own, have gone for considerable discounts to Blue label. Although I imagine if collectors get educated on what "conserved" vs "restored" means, the prices may differentiate between PLOD and Grey relative to Blue. Still doesn't change the fact that they aren't ONLY harsh on pressable defects. They've been harsh on non-pressable defects like stains for a looooong time. 

Well, from observing the major auctions ever since the big Jon Berk Auction on CC a couple of summers ago, it's quite apparent to me that the prices realized would indicate a much greater acceptance for both Conserved and even Restored books relative to the early CGC days when everybody simply tried to avoid the PLOD's.  Of course, a Conserved copy of the same book in the same equivalent grade would most likely and should go for less than a Universal unrestored copy.  At the same time though, the Conserved copies of the same book in the same equivalent grade would also go for a premium to the Unrestored copy of the same book. 

In fact, with many of the HTF or classic cover GA books, it is common for Conserved copies to be selling for a huge premium or even multiples to guide.  The only Conserved book which I won the other year ended up costing me over 2X condition guide and which I still consider as a steal to this day.   These types of premiums or even multiples are definitely not as common for the restored copies, although there are still many that do sell for premiums to guide.  Definitely still more than before when it was limited more to books like Action 13, Cap 3, or even Amazing-Man #26 where I still remember a restored CGC 2.5 graded PLOD copy with a guide valuation of only $198 at the time selling for a rather astounding $6,300 back about 8 years ago.    

As for CGC being harsh on defects such as stains, is it possible that they just might want to entice you to use their additional revenue generating "cleaning" services to help that book maximize its potential a little bit more?    

Edited June 1, 2019 by lou_fine

[lou_fine]

2 hours ago, Supa-Bad-Mofo said:

If you like low grade books, then pressing probably wouldn't be your thing. But, it's a misconception that low/mid grades can't benefit from a press. Like I said in the previous post, I had CGC 4.5 move to a CGC 6.5 with CPR.

Yes, pressing can also be beneficial for a mid-grade book, especially some with the subscription crease where we have seen them go from a CGC 6.5 graded copy right up to a CGC 9.0 graded copy.  

These are more the exceptions to the general rule though, as I believe the overwhelming majority of the pressing jobs are being done for much more recent books already grading in the 9's and just looking for that little extra loving squeeze to hopefully push it up just a little bit more.    

 

2 hours ago, Supa-Bad-Mofo said:

Rationally, I don't see why people don't CPR every higher value book. Any book with a value over $400 and under $1000 costs $65 to grade, plus at least $20 shipping both ways. If you grade one book, you have about $105 into it. Why not pay the $10 to $20 to have it CPR'd? 

Hate to be the bearer of bad news here, but it costs almost as much to have a book pressed as it does to grade a book nowadays.  For the example which you quoted above in terms of a book with a value between $400 and $1,000; it's going to cost you an additional $60 to have it pressed.  Definitely not the $10 or $20 you was talking about and it now looks like you have $165 of additional services and counting (even more with the pre-screen option) into the book just prepping it for sale before you also incur your selling expenses on top of that.  

With those kinds of numbers, guess who's making the guaranteed and easy money on the book.  

Edited June 1, 2019 by lou_fine

[RockMyAmadeus]

1 hour ago, lou_fine said:

it's quite apparent to me that the prices realized would indicate a much greater acceptance for both Conserved and even Restored books relative to the early CGC days when everybody simply tried to avoid the PLOD's.

Due to both the loosening of the "ewww, PLODs have cooties!!" mentality AND the soaring prices of unrestored examples.

It was ugly, but a friend of mine had a 9.0 AF #15 for $20k or thereabouts...but it was trimmed and color touched. Still...far cry from the $400,000 an unrestored copy would cost. Even if it's been fiddled with, it's still an original example.

(Never mind that the 7.0 or so it WOULD have garnered before someone chopped it up, but that's water under the bridge.)

Same thing has happened in coins: "problem" coins with dents, dings, holes, scrapes, cleaned, etc, used to be dumped 30 years ago. Now...people want any example that's genuine.

[Supa-Bad-Mofo]

1 hour ago, lou_fine said:

Yes, pressing can also be beneficial for a mid-grade book, especially some with the subscription crease where we have seen them go from a CGC 6.5 graded copy right up to a CGC 9.0 graded copy.  

These are more the exceptions to the general rule though, as I believe the overwhelming majority of the pressing jobs are being done for much more recent books already grading in the 9's and just looking for that little extra loving squeeze to hopefully push it up just a little bit more.    

 

Hate to be the bearer of bad news here, but it costs almost as much to have a book pressed as it does to grade a book nowadays.  For the example which you quoted above in terms of a book with a value between $400 and $1,000; it's going to cost you an additional $60 to have it pressed.  Definitely not the $10 or $20 you was talking about and it now looks like you have $165 of additional services and counting (even more with the pre-screen option) into the book just prepping it for sale before you also incur your selling expenses on top of that.  

With those kinds of numbers, guess who's making the guaranteed and easy money on the book.  

$60 if you use CCS to press. CGC/CCS prices are the highest in the industry. I use third party services, usually $10 to $20. For example, my latest submission of 7 books went to pressing first. I paid a total of $176.74,  including priority insured shipping to the CPR pro and priority insured shipping from him to CGC. (Keep in mind, I would be paying one of these shipping fees just to get the books to CGC even if I didn't press, but I included it in the pressing fee for simplicity. You could take $5 off the pressing average and add it to the grading average if it fits better for you. In that case, pressing averages about $20 per books and grading $53.) That fee also included a fast track charge and an extra $20 for some extra TLC on a rough book. That averages about $25.24 for cleaning, shipping and pressing per book. The fee for grading the books was $334, averaging about $47.71 per book, including insured ground shipping charges for 2 tiers (4 FT Modern (bronze age books)and 3 Standard (1 bronze and 2 silver).  I spent a total of  about $510 or $73 per book average. I estimate the value of the books at about $2500- $3000... if they get the post-press grades I am expecting. Pre-press grade value is about $1800. To me, the $25 fee per book to ensure the best possible outcome and the highest possible grade is money well spent! 

[Callaway29]

8 hours ago, Supa-Bad-Mofo said:

Sure, you can pre-screen your own books, but then we get back into the subjective nature of the hobby. I can pre-grade my own books, too...but then we end up right back to the core topic of this thread..."I can grade better than CGC can". Yes, I send every book I submit to CPR...even if I think it looks new. If the pro decides it doesn't need a press, I will accept that. So far, I've only had 3 books out of 12 submitted in the last few months that didn't need a press...we're talking Silver to Moderns. Most of the ones pressed were cleaned as well. The 3 that weren't pressed were all 2014/2015 moderns I bought out of the box, before they hit the rack...1 9.8 and 2 9.6's. The rest were bronze age and older.

If you like low grade books, then pressing probably wouldn't be your thing. But, it's a misconception that low/mid grades can't benefit from a press. Like I said in the previous post, I had CGC 4.5 move to a CGC 6.5 with CPR. I would much rather have a sharp, flat 6.5 in my collection than  a creased, misaligned 4.5...but that just a personal choice. Some people don't agree with the CPR thing and hate the thought of a book being manipulated to "look" better. I'll admit that I didn't like it at all when CGC "blessed" pressing as a non-restorative technique...until I saw the results...I was hooked.

Rationally, I don't see why people don't CPR every higher value book. Any book with a value over $400 and under $1000 costs $65 to grade, plus at least $20 shipping both ways. If you grade one book, you have about $105 into it. Why not pay the $10 to $20 to have it CPR'd?  Most pro's will forward your books on to CGC after the work is done, so with shipping, you might have $40 into the CPR and shipping. If you uses CCS, the intermediate shipping charge is eliminated, but you'll pay more for pressing and wait a lot longer. CPR doesn't always guarantee a grade bump, but I would venture to guess most gain something and that means more value.

For the record, I never stated mid/low grades can’t benefit from a press. I also don’t think it’s a widespread misconception, or at least, not one I’ve personally observed. It’s situational...

[NoMan]

POST WILL NEVER CLOSE!

 

[FlyingDonut]

On 5/31/2019 at 4:34 PM, NoMan said:

I thought a 5.0 was a 9.0 on my first submission. It was bad. I'm improving. I currently believe 6.0 to be 9.0.

 

[whomerjay]

On 5/30/2019 at 6:28 AM, moemaya said:

I've been selling comics on ebay for a year now and in a quick amount of time learned to build up a presence and following on my SA and BA books. I have consistent great feedback on my shipping, accuracy, and yes...my grading. Im no pro by any means, but when I state a grade whether it be a 4.0 or a 9.0, I get no complaints whatsoever.

Thats why it came to a surprise to me my last CGC graded submission. Ive only submitted twice. The first time was about a year ago when i submitted some old books from my collection. I wasnt sure what to expect but I took a shot and submitted 10 books. I expected higher grading but I didnt know much back then.

I then submitted my 2nd submission recently of 5 books. I had estimated in my grading a range of 7.5 - 9.0 for these books. What came back was so anything but.

I received a 5.5, 6.0, 6.0, 7.0, 7.5. This is absolutely ludicrous. As a reseller I lost hundreds of dollars on this as I could've sold these for higher grades with zero complaints (and no grading fees!).

I will continue to use CGC for their excellent chat boards but thats about it. From now on its high res images and my suggested grade and let the customer decide.

Anyone else have a similar experience?

I’ve only read the first page of this thread and don’t know what it’s evolved/devolved into, but a few comments:

1) your sample size is a bit small;

2) I imagine most have had this same feeling after originally submitting to CGC.  And many have forgotten. CGC had/has certain criteria for grading that differ from the more commonly held criteria that existed pre-CGC. Some have mentioned the heavy weighting of NCB stress especially in spine, unseen fingerprints etc. also there is clear curve for older books especially GA keys that is quite puzzling. I remember strongly disagreeing with certain apparent  CGC criteria in the early days, and I thought I was the most conservative and anal grader I knew.

Over time many replaced their criteria with those of CGC for obvious reasons. So CGC criteria became the norm whether CGC was “correct” or not. If one presumes that grades reflect aesthetic appeal, then the question is “has CGC accurately judged what is aesthetic to the majority of collectors?” Perhaps not initially. But today that they have essentially compelled most to accept their perception of what’s appealing, so CGC has dictated what is aesthetic and what grade a book should get, and most have knowingly or unknowingly been converted.

3. You might be a strict grader based on a reasonable set of grading guidelines that differ from CGC’s. But there have probably been a few dozen who aren’t  who’ve come to the boards with the same rant. Thus the snarky responses.

 

 

[comix4fun]

21 hours ago, Jeffro™ said:

[deadleg]

13 hours ago, NoMan said:

POST WILL NEVER CLOSE!

 

I need to watch this movie again. 

[HuddyBee]

On 5/30/2019 at 6:28 AM, moemaya said:

I will continue to use CGC for their excellent chat boards but thats about it. From now on its high res images and my suggested grade and let the customer decide.

People need to buy the book not the grade. Its all just standards. Whether its CGC's standards, OSPG's, or your own. Grade difference's only amount for what standard one subscribes himself to. People ought to simply look at a book, and ask themselves if its condition is acceptable. CGC's standard has no more merit than your own or any others (only the fact that more subscribe to it). No standard is more correct than the other. As many have said grading is subjective. The condition of the book isn't. The book is in the condition that its in, final. However, the superficial numerical value is subjective and not concrete, making it (on its own) meaningless.

[Gabagool]

all of us feel we can give an accurate grade to a raw book based on our years of collecting and of course experience with submitting to CGC and seeing the results, However none of our considered "professional graders". as for your customers just being happy and accepting your guesstimate, im sure some people don't give a rat's and judge for themselves based on the pictures you provided. i myself NEVER go by what somone guesses, i trust my own eye.  if you choose not to deal with any grading companies then that's your own prerogative.

[RockMyAmadeus]

1 hour ago, HuddyBee said:

People need to buy the book not the grade. Its all just standards. Whether its CGC's standards, OSPG's, or your own. Grade difference's only amount for what standard one subscribes himself to. People ought to simply look at a book, and ask themselves if its condition is acceptable. CGC's standard has no more merit than your own or any others (only the fact that more subscribe to it). No standard is more correct than the other. As many have said grading is subjective. The condition of the book isn't. The book is in the condition that its in, final. However, the superficial numerical value is subjective and not concrete, making it (on its own) meaningless.

Excellent post! The only things that matters, then, is consensus. Everyone acting in their own interests helps to fine tune those standards and keep them from sliding off to one extreme or the other. The only way third party grading works is if everyone agrees, not one party, but all three. That means CGC, too, is as accountable as the buyer and the seller. The buyer holds the seller accountable, the seller holds the buyer accountable, and they both hold CGC accountable. That's how it works, and that's the only way it works. Anything else is a house of cards waiting to tumble.