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July Hake's Auction
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79 posts in this topic

On 7/12/2019 at 6:51 AM, delekkerste said:

Well...good-but-not-great panel pages from the two keys, GSXM #1 and X-Men #94, are going for more than $20K a page, but, I don't see that happening for X-Men #95-107.  I think good-but-not-great pages from the 1st Cockrum run are more like mid-teens, plus or minus a little bit (say, broadly, $13-$19K).  

I think this splash is cool, but, I didn't think for a second that it was a 6-figure piece.  As Dan M. said, even the #95 cover underwhelmed at auction; I see the splash being worth around half of the Kane/Cockrum cover (which I would peg in the $150-$180K range these days), hence...$75-$90K feels right to me.  

My feeling is that a few of the upper-end sales of Byrne X-Men art have created the impression that (nearly) all of 1st run Cockrum and Byrne X-Men art is worth more than it actually is.  The reality is that there are a lot of pieces that end up selling for less than what many people expect. 2c  

I never really thought about the cover/splash price ratio in such basic terms.  Is that a pretty standard calculation?  Splash pages=half cover prices (not counting all the variable that go into OA pricing like quality, characters, key images, facing forward or backward, eye appeal, etc, etc, etc.)?

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1 minute ago, stinkininkin said:

I never really thought about the cover/splash price ratio in such basic terms.  Is that a pretty standard calculation?  Splash pages=half cover prices (not counting all the variable that go into OA pricing like quality, characters, key images, facing forward or backward, eye appeal, etc, etc, etc.)?

All things being equal (as you said, quality, characters, key images, facing forwards) I think there is some general rules of thumb such as covers being 2x splashes and splashes being 2.5x to 5x of panel pages, etc.

It does sometimes get compressed as values get higher.

Malvin

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7 minutes ago, stinkininkin said:

I never really thought about the cover/splash price ratio in such basic terms.  Is that a pretty standard calculation?  Splash pages=half cover prices (not counting all the variable that go into OA pricing like quality, characters, key images, facing forward or backward, eye appeal, etc, etc, etc.)?

The cover vs splash debate is a really interesting one and might actually deserve a thread on its own.  A few considerations.  First, I understand why covers would attract a premium over a splash with similar content.  Sticking to X-Men Cockrum, nobody would argue that the covers to GS and to XM 101 would capture a major, major premium to their interior counterparts , even though the content is quite similar (the splash to GS XM is very, very similar and the Phoenix splash in the interior is almost the same as the cover).  But there is no doubt that certain splashes can be extremely high quality, on par if not superior to the relative cover.  SS 6,  which I have brought up in a separate thread on the (in)famous Buscema debate, is an example where the splash is IMHO infinitely superior to the cover, and would actually command a premium.

FInally, and I would like some expert's input on this one, I feel that comparing the two is not entirely appropriate.  Because of the medium on which they were printed (glossy paper) and the commercial role they have, covers are "intrinsically" different from splashes.  They tend to have simpler content, aiming more at impact than subtlety.  They also tend to have less backgrounds.  Finally, and here I am threading on unfamiliar grounds - I feel the inks tend to have a different style.  Inks on covers must have less texture, less shading, less cross hatching, less zip-a-tone.  Al this in favour of clarity and impact.  I have not checked, but I suspect inkers like Palmers and Janson have done fewer covers relative to their interior production precisely for this reason.  As an example, look at the cover to Avengers 57 and the relative splash.  The splash has richer texture, what with the shading on the characters and the rain effect, while the cover is obviously much more impactful.  So it will always also come down to personal tastes, and what one wants from their OA.

Personally, I like both, but have in fact bought more splashes than covers.

 

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2 hours ago, delekkerste said:

 

So, I, personally, wouldn't go so far as to prefer the XM 107 splash over any 1st run Cockrum XM cover, but, I agree that it is an A+ example (it would undoubtedly fetch a greater price than many covers from the run) and, really, the kind of splash that is the exception to the rule.  And the rule is that, for late Silver Age-present (i.e., the era in which covers are known to nearly all exist), splashes are not, by and large, the kind of "bragging trophies" for which "Alpha-irrational bank rollers" generally go to the mat. Again, there are of course exceptions that prove the rule, but, by and large, for art from the past 50 years or so, covers are where the BSDs and "wannaBSDs" (tm) throw down. :slapfight:

And that is another reason why I couldn't see this one hitting even $100K, not when the XM 102 cover sold for "only" $131K just last year.  I mean, sure, this splash has more team members, including Wolverine, but, the 102 cover has by far the more memorable image (more desirable as well, IMO - it doesn't have the awkward poses and copious blank space that the 95 splash does) and carries far more bragging rights.  For me, the presence of the full team & Wolverine on the 95 splash is why I pegged it even at $75-90K instead of, say, $60-75K.

$76K is at the lower end of my FMV estimate, so, I think a "good buy" label could fairly be attached to the purchase.  That is, unless the buyer wasn't a dealer or otherwise able to escape the sales tax...if they had to add, say, 8.875% (as in NYC) to the price, bringing it close to $83K, I'd still say it was a decent buy, but, nowhere near the "steal" that some are making it out to be. 2c 

You are the voice of reason on this splash no doubt. Would you concede that it was at least possible that the splash hits 100k if  as you said below,

Quote

  I thought it was $75-90K and that the lower end was more likely unless two people really went for it. (shrug) 

As for the "alpha male" comment forgive me. Hah! I'm a writer at heart and get carried away. I have seen collectors get carried away and thought, "how much of this bid action is a genuine desire to take ownership of art? vs. trying to outlast your unseen bidding rival known or unknown. 

Now sales tax is the ugly new grip on our wallets with internet auctions. This was coming for a long time and now that it's here I'm hearing about it. My brother won a page off the last HA auction and received his invoice. "$200 sales tax?" He had a melt down. Somehow I hadn't shared with him this new taxing on the buyer. 

 
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34 minutes ago, stinkininkin said:

I never really thought about the cover/splash price ratio in such basic terms.  Is that a pretty standard calculation?  Splash pages=half cover prices (not counting all the variable that go into OA pricing like quality, characters, key images, facing forward or backward, eye appeal, etc, etc, etc.)?

I've heard that calculation in one form or another since i started paying attention in 1996. The things you mention "quality, characters" absolutely matter. Isn't this hobby crazy Scott? As an artist and a collector I imagine you catch yourself shaking your head quite a bit.

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3 hours ago, stinkininkin said:

I never really thought about the cover/splash price ratio in such basic terms.  Is that a pretty standard calculation?  Splash pages=half cover prices (not counting all the variable that go into OA pricing like quality, characters, key images, facing forward or backward, eye appeal, etc, etc, etc.)?

I don't think there's a standard calculus when it comes to the cover/splash ratio. That said, I'm guessing in most cases it's more than 2x, but, as Malvin noted, there's probably some multiple compression the higher $$$ you go, the quality of content being comparable.

I'm curious what the average ratio looks like for a Lee/Williams collaboration?  If you guys price a cover at, say, 30K, where would a comparable splash from that book likely be priced? hm

Regarding Carlo's comments above, there are definitely times when splashes may have superior elements than the corresponding cover due to the limitations of the latter (e.g., the space constraints on 70s Marvel picture frame covers). That said, if it was just about the quality of art or amount of content on a piece, there are plenty of interiors that would give covers a run for their money. 

At the end of the day, people remember the covers. I could probably tell you what's on 95%+ of X-Men covers from GS1 through #143 from memory. The same is not true of splashes...hence the large valuation disparity.  I'm the opposite of Carlo in that I have far more covers and panel pages than splashes...I actually think most splashes are overpriced compared to the interiors and would rather pony up for a cover if we're anywhere near a 2:1 price ratio. 

As for Grapeape's query...sure, I'm not saying that it was impossible that the 95 splash could have hit 100K, just that I would have handicapped it at maybe 8/1.

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On 7/12/2019 at 9:51 AM, delekkerste said:

Well...good-but-not-great panel pages from the two keys, GSXM #1 and X-Men #94, are going for more than $20K a page, but, I don't see that happening for X-Men #95-107.  I think good-but-not-great pages from the 1st Cockrum run are more like mid-teens, plus or minus a little bit (say, broadly, $13-$19K).  

I think this splash is cool, but, I didn't think for a second that it was a 6-figure piece.  As Dan M. said, even the #95 cover underwhelmed at auction; I see the splash being worth around half of the Kane/Cockrum cover (which I would peg in the $150-$180K range these days), hence...$75-$90K feels right to me.  

My feeling is that a few of the upper-end sales of Byrne X-Men art have created the impression that (nearly) all of 1st run Cockrum and Byrne X-Men art is worth more than it actually is.  The reality is that there are a lot of pieces that end up selling for less than what many people expect. 2c  

which kane / cockrum cover do you refer to? 95?

Edited by romitaman
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10 hours ago, romitaman said:

which kane / cockrum cover do you refer to? 95?

Yes. Sold for 155K in 2016.  For it to be 200K+ now, that would mean it went up by more % in less time than the X-Men 137 DPS which sold and resold in 2015/2019.  

I'm not saying it's not possible that someone would pay 200K for it, especially if trade is involved, but, I see it more likely to end below that if it hit the auction block again today (around 180K would be my guess).  I personally like the cover a lot (unfortunately it hit the auction block after I started to slow my roll post-kids), but, if given the choice between that and the X137 DPS which just resold for $204K, I'm liking more, valuing higher, and taking the latter all day long. 2c

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On 7/13/2019 at 4:13 PM, delekkerste said:

I don't think there's a standard calculus when it comes to the cover/splash ratio. That said, I'm guessing in most cases it's more than 2x, but, as Malvin noted, there's probably some multiple compression the higher $$$ you go, the quality of content being comparable.

I'm curious what the average ratio looks like for a Lee/Williams collaboration?  If you guys price a cover at, say, 30K, where would a comparable splash from that book likely be priced? hm

Regarding Carlo's comments above, there are definitely times when splashes may have superior elements than the corresponding cover due to the limitations of the latter (e.g., the space constraints on 70s Marvel picture frame covers). That said, if it was just about the quality of art or amount of content on a piece, there are plenty of interiors that would give covers a run for their money. 

At the end of the day, people remember the covers. I could probably tell you what's on 95%+ of X-Men covers from GS1 through #143 from memory. The same is not true of splashes...hence the large valuation disparity.  I'm the opposite of Carlo in that I have far more covers and panel pages than splashes...I actually think most splashes are overpriced compared to the interiors and would rather pony up for a cover if we're anywhere near a 2:1 price ratio. 

As for Grapeape's query...sure, I'm not saying that it was impossible that the 95 splash could have hit 100K, just that I would have handicapped it at maybe 8/1.

Are there any rough rules of thumb anyone uses for pricing covers vs. good panel pages? I am looking at a cover which is almost 6 times higher than good panel pages by the same artist. I could see 4:1, or even 3:1, depending on the panels, but this cover seems priced a little on the high side, and I am not really comfortable with trying to bargain it down (yet). Assume there is nothing special about the cover, e.g, no intro’s of major villains or extra-ordinarily powerful imagery.

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1 hour ago, Rick2you2 said:

Are there any rough rules of thumb anyone uses for pricing covers vs. good panel pages? I am looking at a cover which is almost 6 times higher than good panel pages by the same artist. I could see 4:1, or even 3:1, depending on the panels, but this cover seems priced a little on the high side, and I am not really comfortable with trying to bargain it down (yet). Assume there is nothing special about the cover, e.g, no intro’s of major villains or extra-ordinarily powerful imagery.

I wanna live in that reality lol

 

You don't think if a good panel page was $100 the cover would be $300?

Or $1,000 panel pages and a $3,000 cover?

 

I've seen people say a splash is worth 2.5-5X of a good panel page, and a cover is worth 2.5-5X a splash. It all depends on the content tho.

@delekkerste, For Jim Lee/Williams stuff, someone could just look at Moy's site. Looks like covers are $8-30k, with splashes being $4-7k, and panel pages $800-3k.

Edited by Twanj
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20 minutes ago, Twanj said:

I wanna live in that reality lol

 

You don't think if a good panel page was $100 the cover would be $300?

Or $1,000 panel pages and a $3,000 cover?

 

I've seen people say a splash is worth 2.5-5X of a good panel page, and a cover is worth 2.5-5X a splash. It all depends on the content tho.

@delekkerste, For Jim Lee/Williams stuff, someone could just look at Moy's site. Looks like covers are $8-30k, with splashes being $4-7k, and panel pages $800-3k.

Fair points. Just not anxious to spend it.

Edited by Rick2you2
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6 hours ago, Rick2you2 said:

Are there any rough rules of thumb anyone uses for pricing covers vs. good panel pages?

Quoted from my June 2017 article:

The following is a very rough guide which can be used to estimate the value of a panel page, splash and cover from the same issue or an artist’s run on a title. For reference, this HA auction included the above $28.7k IG #2 cover and a decent heroes-only splash from IG #4 which sold for $7.2k. A strong heroes-only panel page from IG #3 went for $3.6k on ComicLink in March 2017. Going by these prices, two strong panel pages equal one decent splash page, and four decent splash pages equal one mediocre cover! I’ve used this method to estimate values before, but must reiterate that you do so at your own peril! For instance, a panel page is sometimes worth less than one-eighth of a cover, and a splash page is often worth more than one-quarter of a cover. For those who want a simplified formula (and are brave enough to trust my wonky math):

  • 2 x panel page = 1 x splash page
  • 4 x splash page = 1 x cover

https://comicbookinvest.com/2017/06/02/market-report-may-2017-heritage-signature-auction-part-2/

 

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3 hours ago, Twanj said:

ohhh I hear ya!

Just be happy it exists & it's available and not 25-30X :)

All you have to decide is if it's worth it to you.

One of the advantages to my little—ahem—niche is that major competition isn’t that common unless the page overlaps with something else, like a Batman image, or it involves a special artist, like Adams. So, I guess I will take my chances on the future.

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On 7/4/2020 at 12:19 PM, Rick2you2 said:

One of the advantages to my little—ahem—niche is that major competition isn’t that common unless the page overlaps with something else, like a Batman image, or it involves a special artist, like Adams. So, I guess I will take my chances on the future.

Rick, I've decided to go all-out P.S. going forward.  You're on notice.  Every piece will be fought over tooth and nail, and if you so much as see a replica hat and coat set on ebay, you'll hear my haunting laughter close by...

 

 

 

...'twas but a dream. lol

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4 hours ago, exitmusicblue said:

Rick, I've decided to go all-out P.S. going forward.  You're on notice.  Every piece will be fought over tooth and nail, and if you so much as see a replica hat and coat set on ebay, you'll hear my haunting laughter close by...

 

 

 

...'twas but a dream. lol

Hmm... there's also something to be said for buying Phantom Lady artwork. My collection is sorely lacking in adolescent cheesecake. :whistle:

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