My results of a large CGC/CCS submission 3 3

[buttock]

I recently consigned a large portion of my collection to Heritage.  The majority of my collection is uncertified, so it was necessary to have a lot of books certified by CGC.  I always find it informative when people share their experiences with certification, so I thought I’d document my results.  To give a little history, in my collecting career I’ve sent 4 books to CGC and one to Matt Nelson for pressing prior to his joining CCS.  I worked with Lon Allen and for the most part I just had him make the determination of what he felt should go in to CGC or CCS with maybe 5-10 exceptions.  I’ve listed the grade at which I purchased the book (when I had a grade, or when I have the records) as well as the dealer from which I bought the book.  If no dealer is listed, then it came from another collector.  I’ve listed my opinion of the grade as well, and finally what CGC graded the book.  I provide the data largely without commentary, so that you can draw your own conclusions.  

 

Dealer grade (dealer)	My grade	CGC grade
3.0	3.0	4.5
4.0*	4.0	5.0
4.5 (CGC)	4.5	4.0
3.0 (Dave Alexander)	3.0	5.0
8.0*	7.0	7.0
1.8	1.8	2.5
7.0 (CGC)	7.0	7.0
2.5	2.5	3.0
8.0 (Harley)	7.5	6.5
8.5	8.0	7.5
8.5*	8.5*	7.0
7.0 (LCS)	7.0	8.0
4.0 (Tropic)	3.5	4.0
5.0 (Ebay)	4.5	6.0
4.0 (Ebay)	4.5	5.0
2.0 (Bedrock)	2.0	1.8
1.5 (HA)	1.8	2.5
5.0 (Metropolis)	5.0	5.0
4.0 (CGC)	4.0	4.5
4.5 (CGC)	3.0	5.0
ng (ebay)	2.0	2.5
5.5 (CGC)	5.5	5.5
4.0 (Clink)	4.0	5.5
4.5 (ebay)	4.5	6.5
8.0 (CGC)	8.0	7.5
4.0 (CGC)	4.0	4.5
4.5 (ebay)	4.5	5.0
8.0 (ebay)	8.0	7.0
6.0 (Bob Storms)	6.0	6.0
6.0 (ebay)	6.5	7.0
2.5 (ebay)	2.5	3.0
6.0 (ebay)		4.5
8.0 (ebay)	7.0	7.0
9.4 (?)	9.2	8.0
9.4 (ebay)	9.2	9.2
ng (ebay)	7.0	7.0
9.4 (boards)	9.4	8.5

 

 

The next list is of books that went to CCS first.  I don’t have a list of what was or was not done to the books.  I know there were a handful of defects that I specifically asked to be attended to on 3 or 4 books, and they turned out really nicely.  However, there were a number of real surprises, mainly in the wrong direction.  I need to get more details on those books.  One book in particular was a real disappointment.  I didn’t want it to get pressed in the first place, and I didn’t speak up.  It was a gorgeous pedigree copy of a tough book that both Harley and I had at 9.0.  CCS popped the top staple partially when they pressed it.  If this was a book I was planning to keep I would have been apoplectic, as things are they provided a credit toward the total fees.  Other than that I’d say I’m 80% pleased and 20% ambivalent. 

 

Dealer grade (dealer)	My grade	CGC grade after CCS
8.5 (CGC)		8.5
7.5 (CGC)		8.5
8.0 (Harley)	7.5	8.0
9.2 (Metropolis)	9.0	9.2
8.0	8.0	8.5
9.0 (Harley)	9.0	7.0 (damaged by CCS)
4.5 (CGC)	4.5	5.5
9.0 (ebay)	8.0	9.0
4.0 (SoCal)	4.0	5.5
9.0 (Richard Muchin)	app 9.0	7.5
8.0 (CGC)	8.0	8.0
4.0 (Geoffrey's)	4.0	5.5
8.0	8.0	8.0
9.0 (Harley)	8.5	9.2
9.4 (Harley)	9.0	9.6
9.0 (Richard Muchin)	6.5	7.5
4.5 (ebay)	4.0	6.5
5.0	5.0	6.5
7.5	7.5	6.5
6.0 (LCS)	5.5	8.0
app 8.0 (CGC)		7.5
6.0 (ebay)	4.5	6.0
4.5 (ebay)	4.5	6.0
ng (ebay)	4.5	7.0
8.0 (Terry)	8.0	8.5
ng (ebay)	6.0	7.5
ng (Dale Roberts)	6.0	6.0
6.5 (CGC)		7.5
ng (LCS)	6.5	8.0
app 4.0	app 4.0	4.0
8.0 (Geoffrey's)	6.0	7.5
7.0	7.0	7.5
6.0	6.0	9.2
6.5-7.0	same	7.5
6.5-7.0	same	7.5
ng	4.5	6.5
ng	4.5	6.5
6.0	6.0	6.5
ng	7.0	8.0
	7.5	4.5
	7.5	7.0
6.5 (James Payette)	4.5	4.5
8.0 (Metropolis)	7.5	8.5
8.0 (Metropolis)	8.0	9.0
	8.0	8.0
9.0-9.2	9.0	9.2
ng (ebay)	8.0	9.4
6.5	4.5	6.0
ng (ebay)	6.0	8.0
9.4 (ebay)	9.6	9.8
8.0 (ebay)	6.5	8.0

  

[telerites]

 

1 hour ago, buttock said:

I recently consigned a large portion of my collection to Heritage.  The majority of my collection is uncertified, so it was necessary to have a lot of books certified by CGC.

Really interesting information, Dan.

Kind of reminds of cheetah's dealer reports that he would do each year.  It looks you did very well with Ebay purchases.

I assume the ng mean no grade was listed by the seller and NG as used by CGC but kind of surprised that Dale Roberts had an ng.

And were the ones with CGC in the dealer grade purchased slabbed and then cracked out by you?

1 hour ago, buttock said:

7.0 (damaged by CCS)

Did CCS tell you of the popped staple or did you notice it?  Any compensation for the grade drop due to the damage?  Which pedigree was it?

Which sale(s) will they be offered in?

 

[buttock]

25 minutes ago, telerites said:

 

Really interesting information, Dan.

Kind of reminds of cheetah's dealer reports that he would do each year.  It looks you did very well with Ebay purchases.

I assume the ng mean no grade was listed by the seller and NG as used by CGC but kind of surprised that Dale Roberts had an ng.

And were the ones with CGC in the dealer grade purchased slabbed and then cracked out by you?

Did CCS tell you of the popped staple or did you notice it?  Any compensation for the grade drop due to the damage?  Which pedigree was it?

Which sale(s) will they be offered in?

 

The ng from Dale was a book I bought in person.  It didn't have a grade listed.  

 

A few in the first lost have an asterisk as they were restored.  

 

Correct, anything listed as CGC was cracked out.  

 

CCS didn't notice the damage.  I asked for graders notes when I saw the grade.  When I pointed it out, they reviewed it and gave me a fair credit.  

 

I don't want to comment on any specific books, because I've seen a lot of them show up in boardies' collections already.  90% of the books have already sold.  Once the remainder go through I plan to break down how they did.  Suffice it to say that I am a big fan of Heritage. 

[Mmehdy]

great info thank you

[batman_fan]

1 hour ago, buttock said:

The ng from Dale was a book I bought in person.  It didn't have a grade listed.  

 

A few in the first lost have an asterisk as they were restored.  

 

Correct, anything listed as CGC was cracked out.  

 

CCS didn't notice the damage.  I asked for graders notes when I saw the grade.  When I pointed it out, they reviewed it and gave me a fair credit.  

 

I don't want to comment on any specific books, because I've seen a lot of them show up in boardies' collections already.  90% of the books have already sold.  Once the remainder go through I plan to break down how they did.  Suffice it to say that I am a big fan of Heritage. 

Hey Dan, mind me asking the motivation for parting with your collection?  You just trimming the herd or consolidating to fewer bigger books?

[MB1952]

1 hour ago, Mmehdy said:

great info thank you

Agree thanks for sharing, keep us updated. 

[buttock]

2 hours ago, batman_fan said:

Hey Dan, mind me asking the motivation for parting with your collection?  You just trimming the herd or consolidating to fewer bigger books?

The short answer is that I needed to raise funds for business ventures.  There's a lot more that went into it than that, and I'll go more in depth when I summarize, but that's the main driver. 

[batman_fan]

2 minutes ago, buttock said:

The short answer is that I needed to raise funds for business ventures.  There's a lot more that went into it than that, and I'll go more in depth when I summarize, but that's the main driver. 

Good luck on the business venture !  

[thehumantorch]

Thanks Dan, always appreciate this type of info.

You have a couple books listed as apparent in your first two columns and then un-restored in your last column.  Does that mean the restoration was removed or is there something else that changed the diagnosis?

Looks like you did quite well with ebay purchases and Metropolis purchases.  How much of a factor do you think pressing was?

[Ricksneatstuff]

Thank you for sharing Dan.  Pretty huge swings on some of those.  Both ways

[buttock]

10 hours ago, thehumantorch said:

Thanks Dan, always appreciate this type of info.

You have a couple books listed as apparent in your first two columns and then un-restored in your last column.  Does that mean the restoration was removed or is there something else that changed the diagnosis?

Looks like you did quite well with ebay purchases and Metropolis purchases.  How much of a factor do you think pressing was?

Anything in the first list that was restored remained restored.  Good question, I didn't make that clear.  In the CCS list, some books had restoration removed, mainly tiny color touches or glued tear seals opened.  

 

I noted the same observation.  It seems like a lot of people grade books based off of the potential grade, assuming you can press defects out.  This hasn't bothered me in the past, but going forward I'm going to keep in mind that damage can occur.  I had great luck with eBay for 15 years, but it's died down as a viable source. 

[MrBedrock]

It is pretty apparent from your list that that guy Bedrock is a horrible over-grader.

[lou_fine]

13 hours ago, Ricksneatstuff said:

Thank you for sharing Dan.  Pretty huge swings on some of those.  Both ways

Well, you can never really tell if you are talking about the second list since that's got pressing and restoration removal impacts in there.

Just going off the first list only, it looks like there were 7 previously graded CGC books.  If I understand this correctly, it looks like he must had had them all regraded recently with 2 of them coming back in the same grade, 2 of them coming back one notch lower, 2 others coming back one notch higher, and then the last one going all the way from a CGC 3.0 graded copy right up to a CGC 5.0 graded copy on a straight resub.  

Not sure about a batting average of 29% if it also extrapolates to the uber high grades, although I believe there is a lot more variation with the mid-grads due to the various possible combinations of defects.  Still kind of puts into question why specualtors would pay multiples more for a book that is only one notch higher when it comes to otherwise common Modern books that are in uber HG conditions.  

Edited June 9, 2019 by lou_fine

[rjpb]

On the books not sent to CCS, it looks like CGC maybe a tad more generous than you in the 3.0-6.0 range overall. I'm not that surprised by as much as 1.5 swings either way, that's happened to me a couple times. I've only sent maybe 40-50 books to CGC over the years, and have to rely on memory as I don't keep written records. I've also tracked a few books that I had raw, and were subsequently slabbed by someone else. Just in my limited experience I've come to believe there are tighter and looser periods, as small batches submitted have sometimes swung mostly one way or the other from my expectations by an increment or two, or they are almost entirely in line. Although, maybe it's I who have tight and loose periods 

[rjpb]

15 minutes ago, lou_fine said:

Still kind of puts into question why speculators would pay multiples more for a book that is only one notch higher when it comes to otherwise common Modern books that are in uber HG conditions.  

I've come to the conclusion that it's just another element of presentation. Buyers will pay premiums for eye-appeal, deep color strikes, perfect centering, etc. The number in the top left corner is just one more consideration when evaluating the desirability of a book. It doesn't matter if its not entirely objective, once the book is encased, it's part of the package. 

[buttock]

I tend to agree with you.  Swings in one way or the other really don't surprise me that much.  Especially in the 4.0 to 7.0 range.  I think that's the most difficult area to have consistency. on any given day I could great a book a 4.0 or 5.0 and feel convinced that the grade is correct.

 

One book was an old label from the first year of CGC grading, with no intervention it went up a full grade and the page quality went from Cr/OW to OWW.  Looking at the paper myself I figured it would get a bump.

 

Lou_fine, you are reading that incorrectly. The original CGC grade was 4.5. through the slab I graded at a 3.0. I sent it in for a pedigree recheck, because it was clearly a Larson that was not listed as such by CGC. They verified the pedigree and bumped it up from a 4.5 to a 5.0.  Strangely, a tiny drop of water on a high grade book brings the grade down tremendously, while extensive water damage on a mid-grade book makes no difference.

[buttock]

1 hour ago, MrBedrock said:

It is pretty apparent from your list that that guy Bedrock is a horrible over-grader.

But he makes up for it by being a great cuddler.

[MrBedrock]

2 hours ago, buttock said:

4 hours ago, MrBedrock said:

It is pretty apparent from your list that that guy Bedrock is a horrible over-grader.

But he makes up for it by being a great cuddler.

[lou_fine]

3 hours ago, buttock said:

Lou_fine, you are reading that incorrectly. The original CGC grade was 4.5. through the slab I graded at a 3.0.

My bad as I really should stop ckecking on posts with my cell phone since it's always harder to see everything as clear.  

So, it looks like all of the upgrades (X3) and all of the downgrades (X2) were by only one single increment which I find to be in a perfectly acceptable margin of error range when you are delaing with books in the the mid-grades with various defects.  

[lou_fine]

22 hours ago, buttock said:

Suffice it to say that I am a big fan of Heritage.

Glad to hear that you did quite well with your books and that you are happey with the Heritage results.  

Just a question here seems I tend to hear all sorts of differents answers depending upon who the consignor is.  Are the consignments fees as based upon your experience here, really dependent upon both the dollar value of your books plus how well your negotiation skills are?  Especially since I have heard that the range is rather quite wide here.