Why don’t grading companies/collectors consider Marvel Age 97 the first appearance of Darkhawk?
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Simple question. Marvel age had original art, character was on the cover, and came out a month earlier. What’s more the book sells for much higher prices in general (collector acceptance).

The book had national distribution, and had some original content (think his name was forbush man?) among other one shots and off and on work.

 

Anyway just always wondered what the opinion on that was in general. 

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it's a "preview"

1st appearance usually equals a story....1st in story appearance.....

it's been brought up recently and is thought of as such...

:foryou: 

16 minutes ago, zhamlau said:

Simple question. Marvel age had original art, character was on the cover, and came out a month earlier. What’s more the book sells for much higher prices in general (collector acceptance).

The book had national distribution, and had some original content (think his name was forbush man?) among other one shots and off and on work.

 

Anyway just always wondered what the opinion on that was in general. 

 

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Here is a similar thread... with frivolity  ^^

Only one that I remembered where it was...

 

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1 hour ago, zhamlau said:

Anyway just always wondered what the opinion on that was in general. 

Whichever issue I had to sell would be the "first appearance" . . . . :baiting:

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13 hours ago, zhamlau said:

Simple question. Marvel age had original art, character was on the cover, and came out a month earlier. What’s more the book sells for much higher prices in general (collector acceptance).

The book had national distribution, and had some original content (think his name was forbush man?) among other one shots and off and on work.

 

Anyway just always wondered what the opinion on that was in general. 

The higher price is due to that news magazine not having been historically considered important and therefore not preserved as much in high grade. It's a simple supply problem. Price is not indicative of a character's first appearance. It's only an indicator of whether something is desirable.

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4 hours ago, GeeksAreMyPeeps said:

The higher price is due to that news magazine not having been historically considered important and therefore not preserved as much in high grade. It's a simple supply problem. Price is not indicative of a character's first appearance. It's only an indicator of whether something is desirable.

But it’s evidence of market acceptance. That issue, had it just been some issue about submariner, would be worth a fraction of what it is now. Scarcity alone does not determine price if so IWs would sell for well over their current market.

 

I point out price as yet another example of that market treating this book as if its the true first. 

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1 hour ago, zhamlau said:

But it’s evidence of market acceptance. That issue, had it just been some issue about submariner, would be worth a fraction of what it is now. Scarcity alone does not determine price if so IWs would sell for well over their current market.

 

I point out price as yet another example of that market treating this book as if its the true first. 

The market decides what it wants to own. What people want to own doesn't affect whether a preview is a first appearance.

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6 minutes ago, GeeksAreMyPeeps said:

The market decides what it wants to own. What people want to own doesn't affect whether a preview is a first appearance.

Well it sort of does 

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Just now, zhamlau said:

Well it sort of does 

No, it doesn't. The content of the book is the content of the book. I can want a book to contain Batman as much as I want. No amount of wanting that is going to make it happen if it's not already the case.

"First appearance" in the hobby has always meant a specific thing; the first time a character is introduced in a story. This is a medium for stories. Previews, advertisements, etc. are marketing tools, not stories.

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6 minutes ago, GeeksAreMyPeeps said:

No, it doesn't. The content of the book is the content of the book. I can want a book to contain Batman as much as I want. No amount of wanting that is going to make it happen if it's not already the case.

"First appearance" in the hobby has always meant a specific thing; the first time a character is introduced in a story. This is a medium for stories. Previews, advertisements, etc. are marketing tools, not stories.

The first time Darkhawk appeared was marvel age 97, a full month before Darkhawk one.  It was part of an ongoing story, just being previewed in an anthology format. The character appeared, it was the first time he had appeared, it was a licensed and distributed comic book. By this definition it should be the first appearance. 

I mean, if just being the first time a character appears in a story is his first appearance, motion picture funnies would be the first Sub Mariner yet the guides and cgc consider Marvel Comics 1 his first appearance.

 

 

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3 hours ago, zhamlau said:

The first time Darkhawk appeared was marvel age 97, a full month before Darkhawk one.  It was part of an ongoing story, just being previewed in an anthology format. The character appeared, it was the first time he had appeared, it was a licensed and distributed comic book. By this definition it should be the first appearance. 

I mean, if just being the first time a character appears in a story is his first appearance, motion picture funnies would be the first Sub Mariner yet the guides and cgc consider Marvel Comics 1 his first appearance.

 

 

You're conflating the term "appearance" which has a specific meaning in the hobby, with an alternate meaning ("depicted"). While Darkhawk is indeed depicted in Marvel Age Magazine (which is not an anthology, it is a news/marketing magazine, even if the size might confuse some people into believing that it is a comic book) but that's not an appearance in the accepted terms of the hobby.

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10 hours ago, zhamlau said:

But it’s evidence of market acceptance. That issue, had it just been some issue about submariner, would be worth a fraction of what it is now. Scarcity alone does not determine price if so IWs would sell for well over their current market.

I point out price as yet another example of that market treating this book as if its the true first. 

I suppose if you can get enough people to jump off the cliff with you . . . it'll be the first appearance. lol

 

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On 6/14/2019 at 6:38 PM, zhamlau said:

Simple question. Marvel age had original art, character was on the cover, and came out a month earlier. What’s more the book sells for much higher prices in general (collector acceptance).

The book had national distribution, and had some original content (think his name was forbush man?) among other one shots and off and on work.

 

Anyway just always wondered what the opinion on that was in general. 

Because it's not.

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9 hours ago, zhamlau said:

The first time Darkhawk appeared was marvel age 97, a full month before Darkhawk one.  It was part of an ongoing story, just being previewed in an anthology format. The character appeared, it was the first time he had appeared, it was a licensed and distributed comic book. By this definition it should be the first appearance. 

I mean, if just being the first time a character appears in a story is his first appearance, motion picture funnies would be the first Sub Mariner yet the guides and cgc consider Marvel Comics 1 his first appearance.

 

 

Marvel Age was not an anthology.

Marvel Age #97 did not come out "a full month" before Darkhawk #1. According to the US Copyright office, it came out a week before (with some variation due to distribution practices.)

Motion Picture Funnies was neither published nor distributed. It is not a "real" comic book, but an experimental book that never got past the sample stage.

 

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On 6/14/2019 at 8:38 PM, zhamlau said:

Simple question. Marvel age had original art, character was on the cover, and came out a month earlier. What’s more the book sells for much higher prices in general (collector acceptance).

It's just my opinion, but I believe that the market that is buying up these "preview" books are a different market than the ones made up of collectors/readers. The Modern Spec market has been able to create a pocket market off of these type books with collectors/investors that do not read the books. There is a bit of dishonesty when these type books are marketed as 1st appearances, when most readers understand that these are advertisements or promo material sent out by the publisher to promote the true titles.

I've listened to people characterize DC Comics Presents 26 with the promo story of the New Teen Titans as the same thing as the promotional advertising done in the Marvel Age title. One being a first story specifically created for that book and the other being promotional pages of the upcoming new title. It's either dishonesty by someone pumping a spec book they are holding or ignorance of the difference between a 1st appearance, and promotional material put out.

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Marvel Age is listed as being out the month earlier, so it clearly came first. What’s more it’s not just an advertisement it’s the actual first 6 pages of the story.  

 

I can get the argument about motion picture funnies not having wide distribution (not sure if we really know how it was distributed) It’s the 1985 star Michael Jordan XRC argument. I’m not a huge fan of that one personally but by making rules like that it strengths collecting so I get it. Where this argument losses steam I think is San Diego comic con issue 2, which cgc treats as the first appearance of Hellboy even though it wasn’t nationally distributed , and for many years cgc treated John Byrne Nextmen 21 as the first appearance.

 

With all this being said I think the general rule is collectors treat MA97 like the premier book to have for DH because it came out first, but following the rules written down in OS years back you accept DH1 as first appearance.

I think this on some level is like “rookie cards” in baseball. You can appear in a licensed set and have it be your first card, and up until about 10 years ago it would be considered your “RC” designated rookie card...But now based on the new rules the card guides have written, true rookie cards can’t come until you played in a major league game and only count for base cards made that year you first appear.

Anyway, thanks for input on this. Something interesting to think about.

 

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2 hours ago, zhamlau said:

What’s more it’s not just an advertisement it’s the actual first 6 pages of the story.

Yes, that's called a preview. Previews are advertisements.

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8 hours ago, Lazyboy said:
11 hours ago, zhamlau said:

What’s more it’s not just an advertisement it’s the actual first 6 pages of the story.

Yes, that's called a preview. Previews are advertisements.

If it was Spider-man . . . It would be his first appearance. :baiting:

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[Who gives a rip about Darkhawk?] :whistle:

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