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Why don’t grading companies/collectors consider Marvel Age 97 the first appearance of Darkhawk?
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169 posts in this topic

27 minutes ago, RCheli said:

While I agree with most that previews aren't first appearances, the thing that amazes me about this specific Marvel Age/Darkhawk issue is that for most of these situations, the preview is always significantly less expensive that the true comics. FOOM #10 is much less valuable than GS X-Men #1, Capes #1 is much less valuable than Walking Dead #1, and so on. But Marvel Age -- which had a decent sized print run, so nobody should ever say it's rare -- is about twice as valuable as Darkhawk #1.  

And this coming from a third-tier character!

I think its at least partially because Darkhawk 1 was really really really overprinted and was collected as a potential investment item at the time.

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1 hour ago, revat said:

I think its at least partially because Darkhawk 1 was really really really overprinted and was collected as a potential investment item at the time.

Yeah, but there are print run disparities for all of theses. There are significantly more GS X-Men #1s than FOOM #10, and there are about 20% more Walking Dead #1 over Capes #1 (according to Diamond). 

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2 hours ago, RCheli said:

Yeah, but there are print run disparities for all of theses. There are significantly more GS X-Men #1s than FOOM #10, and there are about 20% more Walking Dead #1 over Capes #1 (according to Diamond). 

It's easy to be worth more than Darkhawk 1 or Spawn 1, because they aren't/weren't worth much. It's not so easy to be worth more than Giant-Size X-Men 1 or Walking Dead 1.

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6 minutes ago, Lazyboy said:

It's easy to be worth more than Darkhawk 1 or Spawn 1, because they aren't/weren't worth much. It's not so easy to be worth more than Giant-Size X-Men 1 or Walking Dead 1.

I think the key here is that Spawn and Darkhawk were heavily *speculated* upon. So there are tons of people with extra copies in top condition.

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9 hours ago, GeeksAreMyPeeps said:
9 hours ago, Lazyboy said:

It's easy to be worth more than Darkhawk 1 or Spawn 1, because they aren't/weren't worth much. It's not so easy to be worth more than Giant-Size X-Men 1 or Walking Dead 1.

I think the key here is that Spawn and Darkhawk were heavily *speculated* upon. So there are tons of people with extra copies in top condition.

Yes to both. Value alone is not an indication of anything. If there are 100,000 copies of Darkhawk #1, but only 100 copies of Marvel Age #97, and demand is equal (or as close to equal as it is possible to get in the real world), then MA #97 will be far more valuable than Darkhawk #1...but that doesn't mean "the market has spoken, and decided Marvel Age #97 is the true first appearance." It just means there's a significant disparity in supply, as Revat points out. And Darkhawk #1 was heaaaavily speculated, while Marvel Age #97 was not.

11 hours ago, chasehasadog82 said:

Just curious, does ASM #365 (August '92) apply to this argument? CGC states that it's the 1st appearance of Spider-Man 2099 but I believe it's just a 5 or so page preview of Spider-Man 2099 #1 (November '92)

If the preview is the exact same pages later printed in Spiderman 2099 #1..and I believe they are...and since ASM #365 is identified AS a preview...then past precedent would dictate that ASM #365 is NOT the "first appearance", regardless of how the market is behaving at the moment.

What do you think about it?

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2 hours ago, RockMyAmadeus said:

If the preview is the exact same pages later printed in Spiderman 2099 #1..and I believe they are...and since ASM #365 is identified AS a preview...then past precedent would dictate that ASM #365 is NOT the "first appearance", regardless of how the market is behaving at the moment.

 What do you think about it?

I think ASM #365 is a lot more attractive than Marvel Age #97. And Since Marvel Age was primarily a news comic, it’s collectibility as a whole was less attractive. But looking at the black and white pertaining to this argument, these two examples contradict each other.  

31C91059-C78C-48AE-91EB-C2B9C328ED26.jpeg

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55 minutes ago, chasehasadog82 said:

I think ASM #365 is a lot more attractive than Marvel Age #97. And Since Marvel Age was primarily a news comic, it’s collectibility as a whole was less attractive. But looking at the black and white pertaining to this argument, these two examples contradict each other.  

31C91059-C78C-48AE-91EB-C2B9C328ED26.jpeg

CGC is not the authority on what a first appearance is

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I collect what I like. It’s by no means a primary source of income for me. In other words, I have no skin in the game.

CGC (or grading/encapsulation in general) has drastically changed the landscape since I started collecting comics in the late 80’s/early 90’s. They may not be the authority but they definitely have an undeniable impact. 

Edited by chasehasadog82
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5 hours ago, chasehasadog82 said:

I collect what I like. It’s by no means a primary source of income for me. In other words, I have no skin in the game.

CGC (or grading/encapsulation in general) has drastically changed the landscape since I started collecting comics in the late 80’s/early 90’s. They may not be the authority but they definitely have an undeniable impact. 

An impact on *the hobby*, sure. But they're not the arbiters of what a first appearance is.

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5 hours ago, chasehasadog82 said:

I think ASM #365 is a lot more attractive than Marvel Age #97. And Since Marvel Age was primarily a news comic, it’s collectibility as a whole was less attractive. But looking at the black and white pertaining to this argument, these two examples contradict each other.  

31C91059-C78C-48AE-91EB-C2B9C328ED26.jpeg

It absolutely is a contradiction, but as GAMP said, CGC isn't the authority on what is, and isn't, a first appearance. 

The answer is education and consensus, with an eye towards what has come before, and how previous generations of collectors view these things...including the book. The answer is also a steadfast commitment to consistency, and to resist the inclination to rebrand things based on financial motives.

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2 hours ago, RockMyAmadeus said:

It absolutely is a contradiction, but as GAMP said, CGC isn't the authority on what is, and isn't, a first appearance. 

The answer is education and consensus, with an eye towards what has come before, and how previous generations of collectors view these things...including the book. The answer is also a steadfast commitment to consistency, and to resist the inclination to rebrand things based on financial motives.

The only difference I can see if that this preview is in a comic book, which contains comic stories, and not a news magazine (which is what Marvel Age is, despite being comic-sized) which normally contains marketing and editorial content. Maybe that is factoring into how they're viewing this

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2 hours ago, GeeksAreMyPeeps said:

The only difference I can see if that this preview is in a comic book, which contains comic stories, and not a news magazine (which is what Marvel Age is, despite being comic-sized) which normally contains marketing and editorial content. Maybe that is factoring into how they're viewing this

Possibly...but, as I understand it (not having a copy at immediate hand at the moment), it's still 5 pages of issue #1, printed...verbatim...? What's the visual word for verbatim....? In any event, 5 pages printed from issue #1, so it's just a preview, rather than an original story....like, say, the first appearance of Groo in the back-up story printed in Destroyer Duck #1, which is a wholly original story.

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1 minute ago, RockMyAmadeus said:

Possibly...but, as I understand it (not having a copy at immediate hand at the moment), it's still 5 pages of issue #1, printed...verbatim...? What's the visual word for verbatim....? In any event, 5 pages printed from issue #1, so it's just a preview, rather than an original story....like, say, the first appearance of Groo in the back-up story printed in Destroyer Duck #1, which is a wholly original story.

Or the New Teen Titans "preview." Or the short Damage Control story from Marvel Age. Or the Lazarus preview in the Diamond catalog.

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1 minute ago, GeeksAreMyPeeps said:

Or the New Teen Titans "preview." Or the short Damage Control story from Marvel Age. Or the Lazarus preview in the Diamond catalog.

The DC "bonus previews" from the 80s are great examples. All of them were completely original stories. Most of them have no current meaning, but DCP #26 has always been the most important example.

I'm sure you know this, but others may not know that in Warlord #131, the preview (which was called the "Bonus Book" by this point) the first DC Liefeld story is found. It's not good, of course, but for a couple of minutes in the very early 90s, it was hot. Or...rather, "hot."

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26 minutes ago, RockMyAmadeus said:

The DC "bonus previews" from the 80s are great examples. All of them were completely original stories. Most of them have no current meaning, but DCP #26 has always been the most important example.

I'm sure you know this, but others may not know that in Warlord #131, the preview (which was called the "Bonus Book" by this point) the first DC Liefeld story is found. It's not good, of course, but for a couple of minutes in the very early 90s, it was hot. Or...rather, "hot."

I own that book. Maybe even an extra copy. But I don't think I ever knew that it was Liefeld's first. The first I was aware of was the Hawk & Dove mini

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6 minutes ago, GeeksAreMyPeeps said:

I own that book. Maybe even an extra copy. But I don't think I ever knew that it was Liefeld's first. The first I was aware of was the Hawk & Dove mini

Well, hey, learn something new every day. It even has a Canadian price version, if you can believe it...last one of the title.

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