Why don’t grading companies/collectors consider Marvel Age 97 the first appearance of Darkhawk? 0

[Jeffro.]

2 minutes ago, RockMyAmadeus said:

Thankfully, there aren't hordes of #3s out there, bought up by silly speculators, who then try to retcon in their favor. 

Not yet

[zhamlau]

4 hours ago, shadroch said:

Follow the money.

Well if we followed the money, marvel age 97 would have precedence. 

[zhamlau]

2 hours ago, RockMyAmadeus said:

You're making this much too complicated to justify your position. What you describe has never happened in comics. In the impossibly unlikely event that it does, then the collecting community will decide what to call it. If a publisher, for some strange reason, only managed to print a preview and then failed to print the book previewed, it is almost certainly because of something very unusual happening. As well, a publisher isn't going to print 95% of an upcoming publication in preview form. That's not a preview, regardless of what the publisher calls it, and wouldn't be treated as such by the collecting community.

And Darkhawk meets none of those conditions.

You're trying to argue exceptions as if they are the rule, and muddying up the argument. Motion Picture Funnies #1-4 were not only "not successfully distributed"...they weren't even published and, in the case of issues #2-4, don't even exist.  That Jacquet chose to keep the numbering for Amazing Man (IF he did; that question is not resolved, and may never be) is almost certainly because he wanted to be approved for second class mailing status by the Post Office (and, indeed, such an application was submitted), not because he was trying to establish any sort of historical importance to MPF. I don't imagine there's any sort of reference to MPF anywhere in Amazing Man (hence the open question), so assuming #5 is a continuation is A. speculation at best, and B. likely an artifact of mailing requirements, and nothing more, especially since the supposed "previous issues" #2-4 don't actually exist.

On the other hand, Marvel Comics #1 had a combined reported print run (Oct. and Nov.) of 825,000 copies, and was distributed through normal channels nationwide. In the case of MPF, the publisher's intent was for these books to be published and given away at movie theaters...but that never happened. It's obviously not possible for the collecting community to understand something as a "first appearance" in a comic book which was only known by a single unpublished sample for decades (or unknown entirely until the Jacquet estate copies were discovered in 1974; sources differ), which is why Marvel Comics #1...and NOT MPF #1...is the first appearance of the Sub-Mariner. IF MPF had been printed and distributed as intended, it would, properly, be the first appearance of Subby. But it never happened.

If a book is not actually published...and collectors don't even know it exists...it obviously cannot be considered a first appearance, even if samples were produced, because what matters is what fandom over time has concluded.

The circumstances between MPF and Marvel Age #97/Darkhawk are so far removed from each other, they cannot be reasonably compared in even the slightest way, and it's rather silly to try.

Again, you're muddying up the argument to suit your position. One more time: San Diego Comicon Comics #2 was distributed; its distribution merely happened at a single location. Is the word "preview" "slapped on it somewhere"? Was SDCC supposed to be a "preview" book? Or is it a compilation book of original material? Is the Hellboy material in SDCC later printed in the titles themselves, or is it wholly original material? 

No. As was stated previously, what is key is understanding what the collecting community, en masse and over time, has concluded. Publisher intent...and the consideration thereof...is important, but it is not the key. Most of the time, publisher intent matters. Sometimes, however, it doesn't matter a single bit. Publishers don't care what the collecting community thinks, and don't tailor their publications to suit the whims of collectors. 

You want the answer? Find out what collectors over time have thought about it. That's the key.

PS. Value is meaningless in the discussion. How much something is worth doesn't alter what it is.

I like exploring issues. It’s clear what is a first appearance is viewed as hard and fast in many ways but it also has exceptions and occasional contradictions based on current market sentiment and publishers intent/marketing...but these can also change as well over time as either more research is done or collecting mindsets/beliefs change.

I think I’ve gotten a lot out of this discussion. All cards on the table I’ve had this exact discussion multiple times over 30 years of active collecting and I’ve gotten a myriad of various reasons why something is or isn’t a first appearance. I always found the topic fascinating because there is almost this reverential view of what is a first appearance and what defines it. It’s the corner stone of the comic book collecting drive and what defines it, but it can occasionally be adjusted and exceptions made.

I remember for example when next men 21 (think that was it) was considered for over a decade the first hellboy because of distribution and other concerns but after 10-15 years or so years it was adjusted to be defined as the the free show promo SDCC 1993 even though it was a one city give away (maybe one day). It was such a major character with huge following it was interesting to see that market switch occur.

 

Thanks for the discussion.

[shadroch]

2 hours ago, seanfingh said:

What is fascinating about this "debate" is that it is the confluence of several factors that have never been part of the classic comic collecting milieu: (1) The desire to have your slabbed comic say "1st appearance." In the old days, the market just sorted itself out - now people want to have the comfort of those little words on the right side of their slabs; (2) The instantaneous nature of information dissemination. Again in the old days, people would do research, write or read articles in Overstreet, CVM, CGB or *gasp* Wizard and again, it would, over time, sort itself out - now it is like an immediate blood chumming shark tank for every new character announcement; and (3) Media hype price explosions. You take all of these together and first appearance becomes more than what it has always been - the first appearance of the character in the context of a published, serialized comic book story.  Now it is more of a "dive for the last of the musical chairs" type cash grab where you just keep going back to find something else that can be hoarded and cashed out when the character makes a cameo in "Devil Dinosaur 4."

Historically, a first appearance is what it is, and don't forget, there has always been that old chestnut about "cameo appearances" a la Hulk 180. There can't be a cameo unless the character is already known, and thus a first appearance cannot be a cameo. So anyone that wants a first appearance to be anything else is going to be bucking the trend of historic collecting parlance, which is fine. Just don't expect the old guard to change.  Personally, I wish those folks would find a new term and leave "first appearance" alone - call it a "Bingo!" or a "money shot" or a "dead president bonanza" or whatever.   

I can't believe people are referring to  CVM, CGB or Wizard as the old days.

 Carry on!   Call it macaroni, if you want, as long as you are willing to pay big bucks for it.

[seanfingh]

9 minutes ago, shadroch said:

I can't believe people are referring to  CVM, CGB or Wizard as the old days.

 Carry on!   Call it macaroni, if you want, as long as you are willing to pay big bucks for it.

I'm almost 50, grandpa. Don't spill your Ensure on the comics.

[shadroch]

4 minutes ago, seanfingh said:

I'm almost 50, grandpa. Don't spill your Ensure on the comics.

My comics are still in the original factory plastic they came with. Good thing too, as so many people seem to drool over them these days. 

[seanfingh]

12 minutes ago, shadroch said:

My comics are still in the original factory plastic they came with. Good thing too, as so many people seem to drool over them these days. 

You mean the Seagate bags? Those are collector's items too!

[RockMyAmadeus]

Old man fight! tussle! gumming!

 

[GeeksAreMyPeeps]

13 hours ago, zhamlau said:

1. Publishers intent matters most of all, so even if they print 20 of 21 pages of a characters first appearance say in 1992 but then add that last page and call it issue 1 in 2018, the first appearance wouldn’t count in 2018 cause the publisher used the words “preview”. In theory they could do a “first appearance” in a prestige format book with 126 pages of art with 6 distinct title splashes/stories, and still publish the art for story one in another comicbook but by slapping “preview” somewhere the book wouldn’t be considered a first appearance.

[zhamlau]

57 minutes ago, GeeksAreMyPeeps said:

Haha, this is what’s fun about undefined but hard and fast rules. No one can fully tell you how far they go, just they are sure something like it exists.

 

[GeeksAreMyPeeps]

40 minutes ago, zhamlau said:

Haha, this is what’s fun about undefined but hard and fast rules. No one can fully tell you how far they go, just they are sure something like it exists.

 

I think RMA summed it up nicely above.

[RockMyAmadeus]

50 minutes ago, zhamlau said:

Haha, this is what’s fun about undefined but hard and fast rules. No one can fully tell you how far they go, just they are sure something like it exists.

7 hours ago, RockMyAmadeus said:

If you're looking for "rules" you're not going to find them. Each case is unique, and only general guidelines apply. If you want direction, consider how and what collectors have historically considered them to be.

[RockMyAmadeus]

53 minutes ago, zhamlau said:

Haha, this is what’s fun about undefined but hard and fast rules. No one can fully tell you how far they go, just they are sure something like it exists.

 

Let's put it another way:

"I shall not today attempt further to define the kinds of material I understand to be embraced within that shorthand description, and perhaps I could never succeed in intelligibly doing so. But I know it when I see it, and the motion picture involved in this case is not that." - Potter Stewart

That's the obscenity test, but it applies here, too. While problematic, as it depends on individual interpretation, nevertheless, the comic community has "known it when it sees it", and (almost certainly) wouldn't define 20 of 21 pages printed as a "preview", and recognizes that as a bizarre and impossibly unlikely scenario. However...should such a scenario actually occur, the collecting community en masse will figure out what it actually means (and will almost certainly, based on precedent, reject the notion that 20 of 21 pages constitutes a "preview", but rather simply an appearance...again, in the impossibly unlikely event such a situation would occur.)

 

[zhamlau]

It’s all by feel, I get ya. Nothing wrong with some unwritten rules. All hobbies have em.

[RockMyAmadeus]

5 hours ago, zhamlau said:

I like exploring issues. It’s clear what is a first appearance is viewed as hard and fast in many ways but it also has exceptions and occasional contradictions based on current market sentiment and publishers intent/marketing...but these can also change as well over time as either more research is done or collecting mindsets/beliefs change.

I think I’ve gotten a lot out of this discussion. All cards on the table I’ve had this exact discussion multiple times over 30 years of active collecting and I’ve gotten a myriad of various reasons why something is or isn’t a first appearance. I always found the topic fascinating because there is almost this reverential view of what is a first appearance and what defines it. It’s the corner stone of the comic book collecting drive and what defines it, but it can occasionally be adjusted and exceptions made.

I remember for example when next men 21 (think that was it) was considered for over a decade the first hellboy because of distribution and other concerns but after 10-15 years or so years it was adjusted to be defined as the the free show promo SDCC 1993 even though it was a one city give away (maybe one day). It was such a major character with huge following it was interesting to see that market switch occur.

 

Thanks for the discussion.

In the case of Next Men #21 (and, as in other, similar cases), it was simply a matter of lack of knowledge on the part of the collecting community. Next Men #21 was thought to be "the first Hellboy" because of a confluence of factors at the time:

1. Dime Press #4 is an Italian, rather than American, publication, and the American comic collecting community doesn't generally recognize "first appearances" of "American characters" in foreign publications. Most collectors didn't even know it existed until the 2000s.

2. SDCC #2 was not sold in comics stores, and was only available at SDCC that year (1993), so there would have been a lot of people who completely missed it...especially in that era right before the internet went mainstream. There would have been no way for collectors who didn't attend SDCC to even know about it...aside from the ultra nerds at comics.rec.arts...and it flew completely under everyone's radar. For the record, SDCC #2 was given out...like all four SDCC comics from 1992-1995...in the "swag bag" that all attendees got, regardless of when they showed up.

3. Hellboy didn't become a "hot character" until the ramp up to the first film in 2004, 10-11 years after he first appeared. Because of that, there wasn't really that much interest in tracking down where the character first appeared prior to that. As evidence of that, there's a single sale of SDCC #2 recorded on GPA in Nov of 2002, and another sale in Oct of 2003. That's it. But there are nearly 20 sales of Next Men #21 in that same time frame, because that's what people thought was the first appearance. But prior to that...no one really cared. 

4. Hellboy was published at the height of the comic market, in 1993...but the bulk of the character's appearances came during the crash years, 1995-2002. Everything during that time period was dead or dying, with few exceptions. People just weren't buying comics. Hellboy wasn't on anyone's radar, and wouldn't be for several years...until the first film. 

Hellboy wasn't a huge character, by any definition, prior to the first film. Yes, the character became very popular during that time, but beforehand...he was just one of a plethora of creator owned projects published by Dark Horse. SDCC #2 wasn't "defined" as the first appearance...SDCC #2 IS the first appearance. It came out several months before Next Men #21, and there's nothing subjective about it. But, because of the reasons above, nobody really paid much attention for a decade or so, and it was lack of knowledge and general apathy/disregard towards the character...and NOT disagreement...that caused the confusion.

[RockMyAmadeus]

51 minutes ago, zhamlau said:

It’s all by feel,

No. It's occasionally "by feel."

[Broke as a Joke]

The cover to Marvel Age 97 is original content I believe.  Being on the cover certainly helps push the price even if it is considered a preview 

[divad]

1 hour ago, Broke as a Joke said:

The cover to Marvel Age 97 is original content I believe.  Being on the cover certainly helps push the price even if it is considered a preview 

Uh, I was under the impression that all of the Marvel Age covers were original work . . . am I wrong?

[shadroch]

Freebies from SDCC were often for sale in TBG a week or two after the show, and retailers often got freebie copies to help defer their travel cost. I wasn't around for Hellboy and my only SD show was before that, when there were multiple distributors and shops could attend a Retailer Expo immediately before the Con. Marvel gave us a $300 credit for attending and a lot of swag.  Must have made a grand selling everything.

I never read Hellboy and didn't follow Next Men so I wasn't aware of the demand  until I saw Next Men broken in out in various dealers weekly ads.

Pre- internet, The Buyers Guide had a fairly large audience, who were better informed than some people think.  Comics Value Monthly was selling six figures every month for awhile.

[divad]

Btw, just because RMA writes 5 paragraphs at a time, do not take his rhetoric as definitive.