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Why don’t grading companies/collectors consider Marvel Age 97 the first appearance of Darkhawk?
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Started by zhamlau,

169 posts in this topic

cranky's

cranky's

Posted
Posted
20 minutes ago, Lazyboy said:

It might be, if not for the fact that many hucksters are over-hyping garbage in the name of their own profit. This isn't organic change, it's every bad thing anybody ever said about Wizard, on crack and cranked up to 11.

Relax. If you're a hammer, everything looks like a nail.

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sfcityduck

sfcityduck

Posted
Posted (edited)
5 hours ago, fastballspecial said:

You don't distinguish the difference at all between an ad and a book with the character on the cover and a story about the character inside?

I think Thor 229 and others are just an ad. 

Marvel Age 12 and 97 I would put much higher then just an ad. 
(Although 12 is more a prototype .)

 

 

Fair enough.  A prologue story ala NTT is a story appearance.   An ad is not.  Now tell me what this is:

image.thumb.jpeg.d0feead9bba9e8c9c7b4e305d38be7c0.jpeg

Edited by sfcityduck
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sfcityduck

sfcityduck

Posted
Posted (edited)
7 hours ago, fastballspecial said:

An ad for the most part.

Is it on the cover and does it have 5 pages of development on the character?
If so then I agree if not then its not an ad.

 

 

It is a really nice ad.  Undoubtedly adds value to the book, but is not a first appearance.  

As for Marvel Age, it was a corporate adzine/previews.  A character’s appearance on the cover of such a publication is meaningless. What would convince me is photos of the interior.  If it is indeed a story appearance, you win in my book.  

Edited by sfcityduck
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fastballspecial

fastballspecial

Posted
Posted (edited)
On 12/3/2020 at 1:27 AM, sfcityduck said:

It is a really nice ad.  Undoubtedly adds value to the book, but is not a first appearance.  

As for Marvel Age, it was a corporate adzine/previews.  A character’s appearance on the cover of such a publication is meaningless. What would convince me is photos of the interior.  If it is indeed a story appearance, you win in my book.  

I think you know the answer to that. The 5 pages are on the development of the character with interviews with the writer. 
Its one of the few books I look at and I can't call it an ad, its just too much information for it. It somewhere in between.
With MA 12 I can call it a prototype which is what it basically is.

 

Edited by fastballspecial
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Lazyboy

Lazyboy

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Posted
5 hours ago, fastballspecial said:

I think you know the answer to that. The 5 pages are on the development of the character with interviews with the writer. 
Its one of the few books I look at and I can't call it an ad, its just too much information for it. It somewhere in between.
With MA 12 I can call it a prototype which is what it basically is.

 

Something being informative or entertaining doesn't mean it isn't advertising.

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valiantman

valiantman

Posted
Posted (edited)

The real test for "what is the market's opinion on the first appearance" isn't the price of a single copy with an early appearance.  It's the price of all copies combined.

There are about 500 CGC-graded copies of Malibu Sun #13 and the average grade (9.0) is worth about $300.  That's 500 x $300 = $150,000 (average CGC-slabbed total) market

Meanwhile, there are 16,000 CGC-graded copies of Spawn #1 and the average grade (9.6) is worth about $80.  That's 16,000 x $80 = $1,280,000 (average CGC-slabbed total) market

Spawn #1 is both the first appearance -and- the most important Spawn-related book in the market, regardless of which "early Spawn" book sells for the highest single price. 

Even a $10,000 price for CGC 9.8 Malibu Sun #13 wouldn't make it the most important Spawn book in "the market" because there are only 50 copies at CGC 9.8 and that would get you up to around $650,000 total (with all the other grades).

The market is a reflection of all copies - supply and demand - and it's not even close.

Marvel Age issues (and other preview books or advertisements) don't come anywhere near the number of CGC graded copies it would take to beat the market total value of an actual first appearance comic, even if there are expensive single issue sales records that look amazing. 

The demand might be high for early non-story appearances, but the supply isn't there and the market is always made up of both.

Edited by valiantman
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waaaghboss

waaaghboss

Posted
Posted
8 hours ago, Lazyboy said:

Disagrees with what? Are there actually people out there who don't understand what advertising is?

Yup.  Also a lot of people who still can't grok supply/demand.  

This advertisement selling for more than Darkhawk 1 doesn't make it his first appearance, obviously.  Or, I should say, it should be obvious.  xD

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jdandns

jdandns

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Posted
On 12/1/2020 at 1:59 AM, waaaghboss said:

Marvel Age has collector value?  I still have nightmares of having to leaf past countless marvel ages while rummaging in quarter boxes as kids.  They arent even comics!  :frustrated:

Definite collector value, and a lot of them aren't necessarily tied to a certain comic.

The best example of this is the Stan Lee tribute in #41, which is widely collected.

The women of John Romita Sr. cover on #111 made for an instant classic.

The "Marvels" preview in #130 is a must for Alex Ross collectors, #14 for John Byrne (plus his pair of She-Hulk swimsuit covers), and the Jim Lee X-Men (#104) & McFarlane Spider-man (#90) covers are very popular.

There are also about a half-dozen original Sergio Aragones Groo covers, usually Christmas themed, that fit nicely into two kinds of collections.

Lastly the Marvel Masterpieces preview in #118 (with promo card) belongs in any serious 1990's Marvel trading card collection.

Wish I'd had a crack at those quarter boxes.

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sfcityduck

sfcityduck

Posted
Posted (edited)
On 12/4/2020 at 7:57 AM, fastballspecial said:

I think you know the answer to that. The 5 pages are on the development of the character with interviews with the writer. 
Its one of the few books I look at and I can't call it an ad, its just too much information for it. It somewhere in between.
With MA 12 I can call it a prototype which is what it basically is.

 

 You are talking about a corporate "fanzine" style article.  Look, RC Harvey's article on Miller's DD is one of my most favorite fanzine articles ever, but the cover of CJ 58 is not Elektra's "first appearance."  Because a "first appearance" occurs in a story, in a comic book, not on the cover of a fanzine.  It's a neat item.  Folks will pay a premium for the issue because it is neat, but the "market has not spoken" that this is a "first appearance" for the obvious reason that price and contents are two entirely different things.  Heck, a Stan Lee signed Marvel Age 41 blows away the prices for any other Marvel Age.  What is it the "first appearance" of?

51oQloEpG7L._SX361_BO1,204,203,200_.jpg

Edited by sfcityduck
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fastballspecial

fastballspecial

Posted
Posted
1 minute ago, sfcityduck said:

 You are talking about a corporate "fanzine" style article.  Look, RC Harvey's article on Miller's DD is one of my most favorite fanzine articles ever, but the cover of CJ 58 is not Elektra's "first appearance."  Because a "first appearance" occurs in a story, in a comic book, not on the cover of a fanzine.  It's a neat item.  Folks will pay a premium for the issue because it is neat, but the "market has not spoken" that this is a "first appearance" for the obvious reason it is not.  

51oQloEpG7L._SX361_BO1,204,203,200_.jpg

I am sorry to say we are just in a different age now. Watch these new collectors catch on to that book
and preach it to one of the speculator sites and really thats all they need. I agree its a neat addition like
many others MA 12 and Several Comics Journal as well as other Artist related Mags from the 80s. 

Some wont even agree on Hulk 181 anymore now because they think they know better now. Anymore I just
roll with the flow now. 

 

 

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GeeksAreMyPeeps

GeeksAreMyPeeps

Posted
Posted
7 minutes ago, sfcityduck said:

 You are talking about a corporate "fanzine" style article.  Look, RC Harvey's article on Miller's DD is one of my most favorite fanzine articles ever, but the cover of CJ 58 is not Elektra's "first appearance."  Because a "first appearance" occurs in a story, in a comic book, not on the cover of a fanzine.  It's a neat item.  Folks will pay a premium for the issue because it is neat, but the "market has not spoken" that this is a "first appearance" for the obvious reason it is not.  

51oQloEpG7L._SX361_BO1,204,203,200_.jpg

Hey look! Marvel is launching a film studio!

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sfcityduck

sfcityduck

Posted
Posted
1 minute ago, fastballspecial said:

I am sorry to say we are just in a different age now. Watch these new collectors catch on to that book
and preach it to one of the speculator sites and really thats all they need. I agree its a neat addition like
many others MA 12 and Several Comics Journal as well as other Artist related Mags from the 80s. 

Some wont even agree on Hulk 181 anymore now because they think they know better now. Anymore I just
roll with the flow now. 

 

 

Nah.  I saw this kind of hype in the 80s with b&ws.  Hot book this, hot book that.  Prices ultimately crashed on all but a few of those books.  

No idea what point you are trying to make about Hulk 181.  Everyone knows Wolverine's true first appearance is Hulk 180.  But, Hulk 181 gets a higher price because it the first Wolverine cover and he appears in many more panels.  Which is why Overstreet, CGC, etc., don't call Hulk 181 it Wolverine's "first appearance."  They use a pretty meaningless term "first full story," which means in this context "cool second appearance".

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