Heritage's Next Event Auction has started posting books ! 31 31

[lou_fine]

1 hour ago, MasterChief said:

22 hours ago, lou_fine said:

Any bets that if you ask Matt the same question today, his answer would be completely different since CGC's implementation of their current Restoration Grading Scale now no longer slots the type of chemical cleaning that Mark used to do as falling under the Restoration umbrella.  It is now considered to be Conservation which I guess is not as bad as the old PLOD designation.  So, maybe Mark was partially right when he said at the time way back then that what he was doing was not actually Restoration.

Having been away for awhile, I guess I missed this too. Mark Wilson employs solvent cleaning and it's not considered restoration?

Yes, I believe they made this change back somewhere around 2014 when they came out with the updated Restoration Grading Scale, as it's now considered to be only Conservation as opposed to the much dreaded PLOD restoration:

Conservation Repairs

Conservation repairs are performed with the intent of preserving the structural or chemical integrity of a comic book using professional techniques and materials. It excludes aesthetic repairs such as color touch and piece fill. All conserved grades must satisfy the CGC quality scale of "A" and quantity scale of "1".

 

 

• Tear seals
• Spine split seals
• Reinforcement
• Piece reattachment
• Some cover or interior cleaning (water or solvent)
• Staples cleaned or replaced
• Some leaf casting
• De-acidification

[lou_fine]

Looking at the above list, isn't it simply amazing the number of procedures they've removed from the old Restoration bucket and moved over into the much more acceptable Conservation bucket with their quasi blue/grey label?    

Edited November 5, 2019 by lou_fine

[jimbo_7071]

On 11/4/2019 at 8:07 PM, lou_fine said:

 

You do realize that this is now 2019 and the post you are referencing is from way back in 2013.  

Any bets that if you ask Matt the same question today, his answer would be completely different since CGC's implementation of their current Restoration Grading Scale now no longer slots the type of chemical cleaning that Mark used to do as falling under the Restoration umbrella.  It is now considered to be Conservation which I guess is not as bad as the old PLOD designation.  So, maybe Mark was partially right when he said at the time way back then that what he was doing was not actually Restoration.  

Like I've said before, when we see Ewert working for Heritage or become head of grading at CGC, that'll be the tell tale sign that invisible or properly done micro-trimming has moved out of the list of   activities and has now been given the green light and considered to be good to go.    

One day CGC will declare, "Some copies of some GA issues were trimmed as small as 6.5 X 9.5 inches at the bindery, so as long as your comic measures at least 6.5 X 9.5 inches after you trim it, then the trimming will not be considered restoration, even if it affects the interior artwork."

Edited November 6, 2019 by jimbo_7071

[szav]

2 hours ago, lou_fine said:

Looking at the above list, isn't it simply amazing the number of procedures they've removed from the old Restoration bucket and moved over into the much more acceptable Conservation bucket with their quasi blue/grey label?    

Conservation is more acceptable to who?  It still equals restoration to me when I look for books.

Honestly who cares what they classify it as.  The important thing is that the work is disclosed, which it is.  

The market decides what such books are worth.

Edited November 6, 2019 by szav

[lou_fine]

54 minutes ago, szav said:

3 hours ago, lou_fine said:

Looking at the above list, isn't it simply amazing the number of procedures they've removed from the old Restoration bucket and moved over into the much more acceptable Conservation bucket with their quasi blue/grey label?    

Conservation is more acceptable to who?

Well, based upon realized prices in the comic book marketplace, I would have to say that it must be more acceptable to buyers as they are consistently paying noticeably higher prices for Conserved slabs as compared to the same book in equivalent condition when it comes with the PLOD label.  

Of course, not fully acceptable like the universal "unrestored" books as these books still go for a significantly higher price as compared to their Conserved counterparts in the same grade. 

[MasterChief]

3 hours ago, lou_fine said:

5 hours ago, MasterChief said:

Having been away for awhile, I guess I missed this too. Mark Wilson employs solvent cleaning and it's not considered restoration?

Yes, I believe they made this change back somewhere around 2014 when they came out with the updated Restoration Grading Scale, as it's now considered to be only Conservation as opposed to the much dreaded PLOD restoration:

Conservation Repairs

Conservation repairs are performed with the intent of preserving the structural or chemical integrity of a comic book using professional techniques and materials. It excludes aesthetic repairs such as color touch and piece fill. All conserved grades must satisfy the CGC quality scale of "A" and quantity scale of "1".

• Tear seals
• Spine split seals
• Reinforcement
• Piece reattachment
• Some cover or interior cleaning (water or solvent)
• Staples cleaned or replaced
• Some leaf casting
• De-acidification

Funny how the worm turns.

So, by those standards, the Bethlehem Copy of ASM#1, which is in the current Heritage auction, should be in a restored or conserved holder. But it's not. It was recertified on 9/12/2019 and went from a 9.4 Restored Grade with a label notation of "two tear seals, cleaned and pressed" to a 9.0 Universal.

What am I missing?

The Amazing Spider-Man #1 Bethlehem Pedigree (Marvel, 1963) CGC VF/NM 9.0 Off-white to white pages
 

 

[szav]

12 minutes ago, lou_fine said:

Well, based upon realized prices in the comic book marketplace, I would have to say that it must be more acceptable to buyers as they are consistently paying noticeably higher prices for Conserved slabs as compared to the same book in equivalent condition when it comes with the PLOD label.  

Of course, not fully acceptable like the universal "unrestored" books as these books still go for a significantly higher price as compared to their Conserved counterparts in the same grade. 

You're right from what limited number of conserved books I've seen go at auction, conserved books do seem to fair better than restored books. 

But I still maintain it doesn't matter what CGC calls it.  At the end of the day its up to buyers to decide, so clearly people in general don't care as much about the techniques deemed conservation.  

While I disagree with some of CGCs practices...this is one area where I have no issue with how they operate.  They do a good job of providing me the information I want to help me make a better decision about whether or not I want to buy a particular book  (Some may disagree and think they should disclose whether a book was pressed or not, but that's a whole nother can of worms and I kinda feel that ship has sailed and assume all books have been pressed, and this kind just is what it is at this point).

Edited November 6, 2019 by szav

[batman_fan]

49 minutes ago, MasterChief said:

Funny how the worm turns.

So, by those standards, the Bethlehem Copy of ASM#1, which is in the current Heritage auction, should be in a restored or conserved holder. But it's not. It was recertified on 9/12/2019 and went from a 9.4 Restored Grade with a label notation of "two tear seals, cleaned and pressed" to a 9.0 Universal.

What am I missing?

The Amazing Spider-Man #1 Bethlehem Pedigree (Marvel, 1963) CGC VF/NM 9.0 Off-white to white pages
 

 

You are missing the basic equation

comic - restoration = $$$

 

[lou_fine]

23 minutes ago, batman_fan said:

1 hour ago, MasterChief said:

Funny how the worm turns.

So, by those standards, the Bethlehem Copy of ASM#1, which is in the current Heritage auction, should be in a restored or conserved holder. But it's not. It was recertified on 9/12/2019 and went from a 9.4 Restored Grade with a label notation of "two tear seals, cleaned and pressed" to a 9.0 Universal.

What am I missing?

The Amazing Spider-Man #1 Bethlehem Pedigree (Marvel, 1963) CGC VF/NM 9.0 Off-white to white pages
 

 

You are missing the basic equation

comic - restoration = $$$

Masterchief;

During your leave of absence, CCG like any other successful business enterprise seeks to maximize both their top and bottom lines by adding in as manay additional streams of revenue as possible.  

One of these additional streams of revenue would just happen to be restoration removal which falls under the business umbrella of CCS.  How nice that they can make money by offering restoration services and then double down again by offering restoration removal services on the exact same book.  The sign of a good business model is one where you can make money on the same product (i.e. comic book) not just once, but as many times as possible. 

Especially when you have happy customers lining up with their wallets wide open to give you books for all of your services which you are providing, whether it be for pressing, pre-screen for pressing, grading, pre-screen for grading, restoration, pre-screen for restoration removal, restoration removal, reholdering, special publisher labels, signature labels, pedigree labels, estimated grading range and restoration levels based upon eBay scans, etc., etc..........   I am sure that I must be missing a whole bunch as this is definitely not just a simple once and done grading process.  

Edited November 6, 2019 by lou_fine

[MasterChief]

42 minutes ago, lou_fine said:

1 hour ago, batman_fan said:

1 hour ago, MasterChief said:

Funny how the worm turns.

So, by those standards, the Bethlehem Copy of ASM#1, which is in the current Heritage auction, should be in a restored or conserved holder. But it's not. It was recertified on 9/12/2019 and went from a 9.4 Restored Grade with a label notation of "two tear seals, cleaned and pressed" to a 9.0 Universal.

What am I missing?

The Amazing Spider-Man #1 Bethlehem Pedigree (Marvel, 1963) CGC VF/NM 9.0 Off-white to white pages
 

 

You are missing the basic equation

comic - restoration = $$$

Masterchief;

During your leave of absence, CCG like any other successful business enterprise seeks to maximize both their top and bottom lines by adding in as manay additional streams of revenue as possible.  

One of these additional streams of revenue would just happen to be restoration removal which falls under the business umbrella of CCS.  How nice that they can make money by offering restoration services and then double down again by offering restoration removal services on the exact same book.  The sign of a good business model is one where you can make money on the same product (i.e. comic book) not just once, but as many times as possible. 

I understand the process of removing tear seals... but how does one remove cleaning, whether it's the aqueous or solvent method, to achieve a Universal Grade? 

[Randall Dowling]

20 minutes ago, MasterChief said:

I understand the process of removing tear seals... but how does one remove cleaning, whether it's the aqueous or solvent method, to achieve a Universal Grade? 

If you can’t detect it, it’s not restoration, right... right??  

[Timely]

7 hours ago, MasterChief said:

I understand the process of removing tear seals... but how does one remove cleaning, whether it's the aqueous or solvent method, to achieve a Universal Grade? 

Throw some dirt on it?

[Chicago Boy]

Perfect time for me to insert again that trimming is NOT restoration but destruction ( or removal of what was there ) Deserves a universal label ( if no restoration )  with appropriate downgrade and label notes. 

[Gotham Kid]

14 hours ago, MasterChief said:

the Bethlehem Copy of ASM#1, which is in the current Heritage auction, should be in a restored or conserved holder. But it's not. It was recertified on 9/12/2019 and went from a 9.4 Restored Grade with a label notation of "two tear seals, cleaned and pressed" to a 9.0 Universal.

paging @tth2

[lou_fine]

2 hours ago, Chicago Boy said:

Perfect time for me to insert again that trimming is NOT restoration but destruction ( or removal of what was there ) Deserves a universal label ( if no restoration )  with appropriate downgrade and label notes. 

+1

Danny Dupchak style trimming is most definitely DESTRUCTION of a comic book, but undetectable or near invisible micro-trimming of a book when properly done, is a completely different animal from easily detectable trimming.   

[jimbo_7071]

1 hour ago, lou_fine said:

+1

Danny Dupchak style trimming is most definitely DESTRUCTION of a comic book, but undetectable or near invisible micro-trimming of a book when properly done, is a completely different animal from easily detectable trimming.   

With the normal size variation that occurs amongst copies of any given issue, I have no doubt that CGC must miss some instances of trimming, especially if a con artist were to flatten the book out and duplicate the way it was trimmed at the bindery.

[Dark Knight]

11 hours ago, Chicago Boy said:

Perfect time for me to insert again that trimming is NOT restoration but destruction ( or removal of what was there ) Deserves a universal label ( if no restoration )  with appropriate downgrade and label notes. 

Or just have a "DESTRUCTION" red label..

All jokes aside I too wonder how the book that was previously cleaned is now in an unrestored label. I guess they missed the cleaning part on the book? Seems fishy..

Edited November 7, 2019 by Dark Knight

[Aman619]

23 hours ago, MasterChief said:

I understand the process of removing tear seals... but how does one remove cleaning, whether it's the aqueous or solvent method, to achieve a Universal Grade? 

Is it just me, or does the maligned B/W Pedigree label look pretty dignified with a white cover comic cover?  

Edited November 7, 2019 by Aman619
Typo

[tth2]

22 hours ago, Gotham Kid said:

On 11/6/2019 at 11:09 AM, MasterChief said:

the Bethlehem Copy of ASM#1, which is in the current Heritage auction, should be in a restored or conserved holder. But it's not. It was recertified on 9/12/2019 and went from a 9.4 Restored Grade with a label notation of "two tear seals, cleaned and pressed" to a 9.0 Universal.

paging @tth2

Man I love this hobby! 

[tth2]

11 hours ago, Aman619 said:

Is it just me, or does the maligned B/W Pedigree label look pretty dignified with a white cover comic cover?  

It's just you.