Heritage's Next Event Auction has started posting books ! 31 31

[LordRahl]

33 minutes ago, lou_fine said:

Based upon my recollection, I would tend to agree with Aman's point of view that the "CGC pedigree" did indeed appear to be a pre-dominant factor in the pricing of books for a few years back then.  Of course, I am thinking more from a GA point of view and I clearly remember that the multiples for the Church books even seem to drop as the pedigree was no longer good enough since it also had to have the grade associated with it to pull in the real big dollars.  Certainly not the case anymore as the long established and big pedigrees like the Church books definitely came storming back after that temporary CGC pedigree lull.

As both of you have stated, the CGC pedigree phenomenon seems to have faded to a large extent due to the sheer number of copies in grade showing up in the census over the years.  I imagine it certainly also didn't help when the whole artificial maniipulation of books fiasco came to light and all of a sudden, maximization of potential became a full blown reality to the point of virtually taking over the marketplace.  In terms of the GA keys and HTF classic cover books, it is quite clear that the marketplace has changed radically from when CGC first started up, with huge prices now being paid for books in all grades across the entire condition spectrum, as opposed to just the copies in high grade only.    

I have no clue on the GA market. Didn't follow it in the early days of CGC, still don't follow it today. I would assume that if a GA book only has 2-3 copies in high grade of a desirable book, ped status gets devalued because people are anxious to get any copy and depending on who the motivated bidders are at any one point in time when a copy comes up for sale is going to determine price much more so than ped designation. 

This simply isn't the case for Silver and that is the context Aman framed. I was closely following SA back then and still do now. There has always been a ped premium as far as I recall. If there was some sort of pricing equilibrium reached in the early days of CGC just because not that many copies were slabbed yet, it didn't last "many years". And I'm not at all convinced that it happened at all, even for a couple years. Just not how I remember it. There is also something to be said about certain peds getting a higher bump than others. Curators and PC's certainly outperform Savannah's for example.

[Aman619]

the 2 big unforeseen effects of CGC in my recollection (and experience) were :  Dealers coming to accept a "3rd party grader's" opinions of the grades of their books once they good stuff (NMs and NM-s) were selling in slabs (often 9.6 impossible slabs!) for 3-5 times more than what they had ever aggressively priced them at. These gains more than paid for the low grade stuff that they sold as VFs that were Fs at best that CGC reduced the values on for them.  and 2)  the new idea that a HG copy equal to a Pedigree copy was just as collectible as the Ped.  Peds were anecdotal signifiers of HG qualities.  But with a 3rd party grader equaling the field, orphan HG copies were just as well sought after.  for a time...but things change.... now Peds are special again.  if theres one Ped copy out of 25 9.4 TOS 39s, it gets more love today.  I think...

[tth2]

I think you're both generally correct.  Pre-CGC, I remember dealers advertising White Mountains as White Mountains and demanding a big multiple, without even giving a grade.  They would do the same for Mile Highs.  We were supposed to buy in to the myth that just because it was a pedigreed book, it was pristine and therefore no grade needed to be assigned.  Even if grades were assigned, they were only as accurate as the dealer's grading ability.

Post-CGC, we could see more clearly that not every pedigree was of uniform quality, both visa vis other pedigrees and also internally within the same pedigree.  I remember an eBay auction early in the CGC era featuring a bunch of slabbed WM JIMs in the 90s, and they were all 9.2s, indicating that "White Mountain" did not necessarily equate to NM or NM+.

So I think what developed (and still holds true) was that structural grade was paramount, which I think is what Aman is saying.  If there was a 9.2 WM copy of a book and a 9.4 non-pedigree copy, collectors would pay more for the 9.4 non-pedigree copy, whereas before they would've paid more for the WM copy just because it was WM.  To this day I don't often see where collectors will pay more for a 9.4 pedigree copy than a 9.6 non-pedigree copy, unless there are other factors such as the pedigree copy has worse PQ or worse QP.  

However, if the structural grade was the same and no other major differences (C-OW vs W pages), then collectors almost always prefer the pedigreed copy of a book and will pay a premium for it, and usually for good reason because books from the top pedigrees generally present better.  Usually brighter, fresher looking, generally better PQ, etc.  I think this is what LordRahl is saying (by the way, welcome back to the Boards, haven't seen you here in ages!).

[LordRahl]

4 hours ago, tth2 said:

I think you're both generally correct.  Pre-CGC, I remember dealers advertising White Mountains as White Mountains and demanding a big multiple, without even giving a grade.  They would do the same for Mile Highs.  We were supposed to buy in to the myth that just because it was a pedigreed book, it was pristine and therefore no grade needed to be assigned.  Even if grades were assigned, they were only as accurate as the dealer's grading ability.

Post-CGC, we could see more clearly that not every pedigree was of uniform quality, both visa vis other pedigrees and also internally within the same pedigree.  I remember an eBay auction early in the CGC era featuring a bunch of slabbed WM JIMs in the 90s, and they were all 9.2s, indicating that "White Mountain" did not necessarily equate to NM or NM+.

So I think what developed (and still holds true) was that structural grade was paramount, which I think is what Aman is saying.  If there was a 9.2 WM copy of a book and a 9.4 non-pedigree copy, collectors would pay more for the 9.4 non-pedigree copy, whereas before they would've paid more for the WM copy just because it was WM.  To this day I don't often see where collectors will pay more for a 9.4 pedigree copy than a 9.6 non-pedigree copy, unless there are other factors such as the pedigree copy has worse PQ or worse QP.  

However, if the structural grade was the same and no other major differences (C-OW vs W pages), then collectors almost always prefer the pedigreed copy of a book and will pay a premium for it, and usually for good reason because books from the top pedigrees generally present better.  Usually brighter, fresher looking, generally better PQ, etc.  I think this is what LordRahl is saying (by the way, welcome back to the Boards, haven't seen you here in ages!).

Hi Tim  and yes that is 100% my point. Same grade peds will sell for more than non-peds, at least in the SA world. I get that GA might be different just because of how scarce some books might be.

[Cat-Man_America]

As I see it, pedigrees may be more important today than they've ever been, ...especially when one factors in random grade bumps moving non-pedigree copies up the scale.  

Also, there's the potential impact that once mythical pedigree book looming on the collecting horizon. 

[Gotham Kid]

On 2/15/2020 at 8:01 AM, lou_fine said:

then how about $420K with still another 20 days to go!!!    

the video game console is now down to 360K w/BP

WTF !?

Why can't early Tec auctions work that way

Edited February 21, 2020 by Gotham Kid

[batman_fan]

13 minutes ago, Gotham Kid said:

the video game console is now down to 360K w/BP

WTF !?

Why can't early Tec auctions work that way

I blame the coronvirus

[lou_fine]

55 minutes ago, Gotham Kid said:

On 2/14/2020 at 11:01 PM, lou_fine said:

then how about $420K with still another 20 days to go!!!    

the video game console is now down to 360K w/BP

WTF !?

Why can't early Tec auctions work that way

Yes, it looks like this was already alluded to by Bronty last weekend:

On 2/16/2020 at 11:07 AM, lou_fine said:

Any chance that Ivy and Halperin are also very well aware of this fact and *ahem* taking appropriate action to ensure that lucky Palmer wins this lot at a "good" price and receives the headlines that he seems to crave for?    

 

On 2/16/2020 at 11:16 AM, Bronty said:

I don't think so.   I'm not a conspiracy theorist for one, and for two, the bid was briefly one increment higher than it is now.    That suggests to me that HA cancelled a dodgy bid.

(In other words, someone probably is shilling him up, but it ain't HA  )

Well, either a dodgy bid or Ivy and Halperin's cronies went past their own bidding authorization limit?  

[Bronty]

42 minutes ago, lou_fine said:

Yes, it looks like this was already alluded to by Bronty last weekend:

 

Well, either a dodgy bid or Ivy and Halperin's cronies went past their own bidding authorization limit?  

Two cancellations!    Before juice, 360 down to 350, then down to 280.

Its good that HA is on top of trying to keep the action clean.

[batman_fan]

31 minutes ago, Bronty said:

Two cancellations!    Before juice, 360 down to 350, then down to 280.

Its good that HA is on top of trying to keep the action clean.

I got my catalogs last night and they have a smaller one with the console on the cover.  Seems like they advertising it quite heavily.

[lou_fine]

22 minutes ago, batman_fan said:

I got my catalogs last night and they have a smaller one with the console on the cover.  Seems like they advertising it quite heavily.

Yes, but did you noticed that they had the incorrect auction lot number on the cover for the console?  

[batman_fan]

1 hour ago, lou_fine said:

Yes, but did you noticed that they had the incorrect auction lot number on the cover for the console?  

Details details. It’s the thought that counts. 

[szav]

Shame on me for allowing myself to be suckered by the a~~-oles at HA.  I mean I knew the colors wouldn't be as bold as in the HA scan, but I didn't think they'd go so far as to turn orange into red.  Or maybe I'm going colorblind.  At any rate grabbed this because it went low.  Disappointed enough that I'm going to stop doing business with these clowns until they stop deliberately misrepresenting their books.

 

[sagii]

8 minutes ago, szav said:

Shame on me for allowing myself to be suckered by the a~~-oles at HA.  I mean I knew the colors wouldn't be as bold as in the HA scan, but I didn't think they'd go so far as to turn orange into red.  Or maybe I'm going colorblind.  At any rate grabbed this because it went low.  Disappointed enough that I'm going to stop doing business with these clowns until they stop deliberately misrepresenting their books.

 

Ouch!

But if it's any consolation my friend, it still is a pretty copy (not as alluring as the scan depicts, but a solid 8.0 from what I can see in your pic). 

I've got my eye on a bold blood red cover book( in the scan) ending on HA this weekend. If I win, hope I'm not disappointed 

[lou_fine]

2 hours ago, batman_fan said:

3 hours ago, lou_fine said:

Yes, but did you noticed that they had the incorrect auction lot number on the cover for the console?  

Details details. It’s the thought that counts. 

Yes, I guess we really can't complain at all since we receive their aution catalogs gratis anyways.  

[batman_fan]

9 minutes ago, lou_fine said:

Yes, I guess we really can't complain at all since we receive their aution catalogs gratis anyways.  

My problem is I keep all the catalogs I get and probably have a 6ft+ stack.  Every time I think about getting rid of some I flip through them and say "you know, I might want that."

[szav]

51 minutes ago, sagii said:

Ouch!

But if it's any consolation my friend, it still is a pretty copy (not as alluring as the scan depicts, but a solid 8.0 from what I can see in your pic). 

I've got my eye on a bold blood red cover book( in the scan) ending on HA this weekend. If I win, hope I'm not disappointed 

I'll live, its still a much better than average color strike and prices have dipped recently.  Still, I'd rather go without than give any money to a bunch of charlatans...so I'm serious about the HA ban.  There's no point buying books from them because every time you look at them you're reminded that you got taken.  It really saps the joy out of it.

[lou_fine]

23 minutes ago, batman_fan said:

34 minutes ago, lou_fine said:

Yes, I guess we really can't complain at all since we receive their aution catalogs gratis anyways.  

My problem is I keep all the catalogs I get and probably have a 6ft+ stack.  Every time I think about getting rid of some I flip through them and say "you know, I might want that."

Sounds like you are also a pack rat like me and simply just can't throw anything out. 

Do you also have all of those old auction catalogs from Sotheby's or what's even worse, all of the old dealer printed catalogs from way back in the days before they ever had auctions or even no internet at all back then?  

[batman_fan]

2 minutes ago, lou_fine said:

Sounds like you are also a pack rat like me and simply just can't throw anything out. 

Do you also have all of those old auction catalogs from Sotheby's or what's even worse, all of the old dealer printed catalogs from way back in the days before they ever had auctions or even no internet at all back then?  

Yes, I need help 

[comicnoir]

All my friends are waiting for my pile of catalogues to fall down and crush me.