Heritage's Next Event Auction has started posting books ! 31 31

[jimbo_7071]

14 hours ago, RareHighGrade said:

Can you give examples of the books you are referring to?

I mentioned West's Catman 25 as one example. It sat on Metro's site at $1,700 for at least a couple of years (2012–2013) as a raw 9.0; it just sold for $21,600 as a slabbed 9.2.

Even the WDC&S books that sold on Heritage over the summer went for staggering prices. (I bought one of them—for twice what I expected to pay.)

I'm not convinced that all of these books are as rare in high grade as the census makes them look, so prices like that seem very risky to me. I guess the guys contending for those books can afford the risk much better than I can. The demand for early Tecs and Actions isn't going away any time soon, but for the more offbeat stuff that I like, it might only take a couple of collectors exiting the hobby for prices to come way down—which would probably happen just when I needed to sell, if I were to try to compete. I'm 46, and I know that quite a few GA collectors are 10 or even 20 years older than I am, so I worry that If I try to sell my collection in 30 years, many of the potential buyers for the books I collect might be dead or retired from the hobby.

The thing is, where were these buyers with such deep pockets 8 years ago? It seems like there are buyers out there now who will pay whatever they have to to get a book without any regard to how the book has been valued in the past.

There have been strong sales before—for instance, the Mile High copy of Target 7 sold for $57,500 back in 2003—but those record-busting sales have typically been limited to major books. Target 7 is an important book in the hobby; Catman 25 isn't; it was always one of the issues with virtually no demand. (That price for the Target 7 still seems mind boggling to me by 2003 standards. I have no idea who the buyer was; if I did, I'd probably try to get him to adopt me. I wouldn't be above putting on a onesie and saying, "Ga-ga, goo-goo" with a pacifier in my mouth.)

[Aman619]

7 hours ago, jimbo_7071 said:

... it might only take a couple of collectors exiting the hobby for prices to come way down—which would probably happen just when I needed to sell,

thats a real concern sadly.  DC war books were super hot at times in the past decade until the primary "gotta have em at any price" collector exited the hobby.  As for Tecs and Actions never losing their values Im not sure thats completely correct. Aside from the keys, Ive witnessed wave patterns for both titles.  Actions were hot years ago and have cooled off. Too many silly covers in the run. Even the early ones like 17-30 dont explode when offered for sale.) And Detective has only recently heated up (goosed by the availability of Pennyworth HG gems you never see for sale) after tepidness for many years. (except for Joker covers! Even the lesser issues are hot as heck all the way thru the Bronze age. Whats the deal with Bat 251!!! This is the world we live in now, younger guys with money to burn snapping up everything in sight and prices that make out heads explode.

[Randall Ries]

18 minutes ago, Aman619 said:

Whats the deal with Bat 251!!! This is the world we live in now, younger guys with money to burn snapping up everything in sight and prices that make out heads explode.

I think that is correct. And perhaps it is older people as well. My fear is that it is like the housing market in 2007. And perhaps because of COVID and many investors getting burned at the stake in the stock market, they turn to more tangible assets. Not necessarily loving the medium, but just to have something to put in their portfolios. Creating a bubble that could easily burst if the vaccine is a success and things go back to where they were. Particularly the stock market. Even in 2008, I remember watching some financial program on MSNBC and the panelists were panicking because most people lost half their portfolio value over night and one of them quipped "What are we supposed to do NOW? Collect vintages comic books?"

Apparently, a lot of investors did just that.

As to HA, I am a little resentful of them. The sell price includes the buyers "premium" they have to pay to own the book. If I'm buying the Bat 1 9.4, I am also paying close to a mill(?) as a buyers fee? Last time I looked, it was $500,000 for the buyers fee. Unless I misread it. I don't think so. Doesn't matter much. I'll never have a Bat 1. Maybe a page from one. Even if I had that kind of cash, no way I'm paying any auction house $500,000 for what is pretty much a finders fee. And the seller has to pay as well. I went to buy an All Star #7 once. When I realized I would have to pay $300 as a buyers fee, I decided against buying one from HA. I assume the final sales figure includes the buyers fee and conveniently leaves out the seller fee. So, if a books price is already bloated, paying another 10-15% is not happening on my end. The casual reader only sees the sale price including buyers fee. Right?

Bat 251 saw what was explained to me as a "price correction". I bought my CGC 9.0 o/w in 2012 for $113. Now, in less than ten years, I could offer it for sale for around $1k and not get scoffed at. I wish I had bought ten of them at that price. When I bought it, I already knew it was the first time the Joker had murdered since 1942. Plus it was Neal Adams. A good (not great) cover. There are glaring flaws. But I loved the book and my only determination at the time was to collect 227, 232, 242-245, 251 and 255. Which I did. Yet it would seem it finally dawned on collectors that 251 was a key in a couple different ways. It even surpasses Bat 232 in value. Which shouldn't be the case. AND it isn't even that great a story. At least the ending isn't all that great. But, like Bat 227, the cover of 251 shows every flaw and ding. 232 not so much.

House Of Secrets 92 took a HUGE jump when Wrightson passed. The other thing that changed with that book was....nothing. Not a GeeDeed thing. Same census. Same book. Even MORE available than before. But because Wrightson died, suddenly it is worth FOUR and FIVE TIMES what it was? Why? He isn't going to draw anymore HOS 92's? But that has always been a weird book. Always sought after. Hardish to find in ow/w and nearly impossible in White. Nevertheless. I bought my 9.0 in 2012 as well for $900. Which I thought was steep. So did my wife. Loudly. Today, some are asking between $6,000 and $15,000. The latter for a signed 9.0. Come on. How long are those "values' going to be sustainable?

The Overstreet book is out the window. The actual fair market VALUE of a book has nothing in common with its asking price anymore. OR sale prices. My experience has been when you offer to pay FMV or "guide" for a book you like, it is more often than not refused. They say the Overstreet guide is obsolete and now ebay, HA and CGC determine the value of books. Even here, in the "want to buy" section, buyers mention they are willing to pay FMV for a given book. I suppose many can still do that. But just as often, I notice the same buyer adding "bump" to their request. Several times. Which must mean in some cases they couldn't agree on a price.

To a degree, CGC has limited the ability of the average income collector as well. The same book raw commands a premium graded. Always. I sort of get that. But if the book has been sold a dozen times, that expense of grading has already been met. Graded gives a feeling of security to the buyer and security? People will pay through the nose for it. Even very recent CGC graded 9.8 books with NOTHING special about them and could be considered mediocre get more than they should realistically get. Because everyone wants the 9.8 or 9.9. Having a junk book in 9.9 and people will break a hip running to the ATM to purchase it. It's almost hysteria.

I quit collecting in 1986 because at that time, Crisis On Infinite Earths had just happened and forced us all to buy books we normally wouldn't to stay with the storyline. At that time as well, both Marvel and DC jumped on the #1 bandwagon. Superman started over along with several other book.s Wolvernine/Havoc, Green Arrow: The Longbow Hunters, V For Vendetta, Hellblazer and Aquaman. Because mainly - of Crisis. it got too commercial for my tastes. When I resumed collecting again, I kept it simple. Collect books from when I was a kid. The Adams stuff. The Wrightson stuff. Golden Age when it doesn't rip me a new hole price-wise. I want to collect for the love of the books. Not so much the value. I collected all of DK:3. Worthless books by themselves. ExPENsive when they are signed x4 and x5 in some cases. Collected all the Adams Strange Adventure "Deadman" storyline signed by Adams. Not real expensive raw, graded OR signed. I enjoy myself now. Instead of focusing on the sordid topic of coin all the time. Or getting hosed by the advertising and marketing depts of Marvel and DC.

[Mmehdy]

1 hour ago, Aman619 said:

thats a real concern sadly.  DC war books were super hot at times in the past decade until the primary "gotta have em at any price" collector exited the hobby.  As for Tecs and Actions never losing their values Im not sure thats completely correct. Aside from the keys, Ive witnessed wave patterns for both titles.  Actions were hot years ago and have cooled off. Too many silly covers in the run. Even the early ones like 17-30 dont explode when offered for sale.) And Detective has only recently heated up (goosed by the availability of Pennyworth HG gems you never see for sale) after tepidness for many years. (except for Joker covers! Even the lesser issues are hot as heck all the way thru the Bronze age. Whats the deal with Bat 251!!! This is the world we live in now, younger guys with money to burn snapping up everything in sight and prices that make out heads explode.

We don't know at the top end whether there were 4/5 bidders or just to two collectors bidding against each other, HA does provide the number of bidders, but that number gets pumped up a bit with the same bidder bidding again, but it still could be a indication as to actual demand, so when you pay the worlds highest price for that book the danger is that you are in unknown territory. Just to break even Batman 1 2.2M it would be 440K additional buyers premium plus possible sales tax and shipping...at the minimum it would take say 2.64 plus shipping to break even...assuming no 200K sales tax. In the past, it has worked out, with Bob Overstreets genius price stepping over 50 years of not letting the market get totally out of control. Now there are no brakes on this price game, Overstreet is not considered a real price point, even GPA is somewhat behind the times, by just reporting what has taken place in the market. Some Books I think have a lot of life let in them, such as Cap#1...384K for the 8.5 is a solid buy, given the book and probably at some point it will be 500K in the next five  years, however remember you cannot use the auction price as a cost basis if it being resold on that market, even with a 10% auction premium and shipping it would take $422,000 just to break even PLUS $3,840 to cover the additional premium at 10% on the higher price so break even it would be $425,840 plus whatever shipping costs were involved in the buying of the book. When you bid, at least ADD 10% commission at least, plus the additional 10% of the 10% increase into my calculation, shipping and sales tax costs as what would be the break even point and THEN make the decision to buy with that knowledge, so the book you will hope will go up at least 11% plus shipping must have some potential upswing if you want to recover just you paid for it. If you are a speculator you had better add carrying costs of the loss of use of that money in asset which does not produce income. SO my point is when we see record prices and you buy the book partially as a collector and  investor always look at your exit cost. If you are a true comic book collector with resale with no intention of flipping it, making it part of your" permanent" collection you should be safe  in terms  of  recovery of what you paid provided you hold over the 10 or 20 year timeframe.

Edited January 17, 2021 by Mmehdy

[aleksicwon]

48 minutes ago, Randall Ries said:

As to HA, I am a little resentful of them. The sell price includes the buyers "premium" they have to pay to own the book. If I'm buying the Bat 1 9.4, I am also paying close to a mill(?) as a buyers fee?

When I first started out , I had this confusion too . But is not correct . The buyer is buying at fair market value . The seller is the one getting burned . Let's say FMV is $500 ( as per GoCollect ) . You are likely to get the book at $500 . The seller however is only getting $417 ( 20% less for commission) . 

I don't know why they call it "buyer's premium" . I think it is a marketing gimmick to hide the fact that the seller is getting burned . It is just commission that seller has to pay .

Edited January 17, 2021 by aleksicwon

[Mmehdy]

12 minutes ago, aleksicwon said:

When I first started out , I had this confusion too . But is not correct . The buyer is buying at fair market value . The seller is the one getting burned . Let's say FMV is $500 ( as per GoCollect ) . You are likely to get the book at $500 . The seller however is only getting $417 ( 20% less ) . 

I don't know why they call it "buyer's premium" . I think it is a marketing gimmick to hide the fact that the seller is getting burned . It is just commission that seller has to pay .

The same thing on real estate who is paying, they are saying seller...but in reality it the buyer cash....

[Funnybooks]

The seller fee is negotiable based on the relationship of the seller and the auction house and the quality of the book(s) submitted, so the 20% is merely a starting point. I would suspect this copy of Bat 1 had a very minimal seller fee to no seller fee or better.

[aleksicwon]

3 hours ago, Randall Ries said:

Even here, in the "want to buy" section, buyers mention they are willing to pay FMV for a given book

I always assume when people say FMV , they are talking about GoCollect or GPA data . On youtube channels that is what people mean at least . FMV is just what people are willing to currently pay . As for Overstreet guide , I have no idea what they are talking about . It seems to me those prices are what dealers would be willing to pay for a not slabbed comic . Again , I think gullible sellers are the target here .

Edited January 17, 2021 by aleksicwon

[aleksicwon]

40 minutes ago, Mmehdy said:

The same thing on real estate who is paying, they are saying seller...but in reality it the buyer cash....

Buyers pay what they are willing to pay based on supply and demand . Seller pays commission .

[Randall Ries]

3 hours ago, aleksicwon said:

When I first started out , I had this confusion too . But is not correct . The buyer is buying at fair market value . The seller is the one getting burned . Let's say FMV is $500 ( as per GoCollect ) . You are likely to get the book at $500 . The seller however is only getting $417 ( 20% less for commission) . 

I don't know why they call it "buyer's premium" . I think it is a marketing gimmick to hide the fact that the seller is getting burned . It is just commission that seller has to pay .

So, you are saying I'm confused when it's called a "buyers premium" and when I put the book into queue the premium is added to the sale price? I go to buy the 9.0 All Star 7 and there is a $300 add-on to the price plus tax and shipping and that's not a buyers premium? It seems like both the buyer and the seller are paying on both ends. I have to pay a premium when buying from CLINK as well. Definitely when I'm selling, too. Plus tax and shipping. Seems to me both the buyer and the seller are getting burned. That Bat 1 9.4 had a buyer premium of $500k attached to it. Did it cost HA $500k to host it? That book sold itself. They write a quick blurb "Yappity-Yap! It's a beauty and a rarity and an "attic find" (Baloney) and you WANT this! But almost ALL of you PEONS can't! Now BID!" It didn't need any help whatsoever from HA. Certainly not $500k worth. Unless I am mistaken, both the buyer and seller are getting hosed.

FMV (to me anyway) should more or less reflect the price guide AFAIC. I don't think the Overstreet guide is a wholesale manual instructing dealers what to pay sellers. It must be some of the reason why boarders here prefer to buy from other boarders. To not pay a premium and perhaps get a better price on a book they want. I mean $13,000 for a faded Wrightson signature on a graded copy of HOS 92 is way out of line. There was another for $15,000. I understand paying more for actual rare books but there is nothing rare or scarce about an HOS 92. No matter how it's spun. "Oh WELL! THIS one has WHITE PAGES! THIS one has a cutsie little blue STICKER from CGC saying it has perfect staple placement! THIS one says it has perfect centering! See? The sticker SAYS so! THIS is a 9.8 Bat 227! It's a PEDIGREE!" Yesterday, it was a $9k book on another site. Which was high. Sat there for months with a valid bid for over $7k. Which I thought was a generous offer. TODAY it's worth $30k? Bet Metro was watching the Pennyworth book to see how it would do at auction. And screw the guy who made a good offer. Suddenly their 9.8 is just as good as the Pennyworth. A 9.8 is a 9.8. Doesn't matter whose attic it was in AFAIC. Now Metro's is worth 5x what it was yesterday? I guess so.

Really don't think a seller should be complaining about "fees" when they put a "I Don't Want To Sell This Book" price on something and it sits for months or sometimes years.

And I find it odd when I go to sell a book, I get lowballed. And if I don't sell it at wholesale, I get to keep it. A dealer offered me $1575 for my All Star 7. An ebay dealer. Says he has fees. Yeah. And when I sell the book for 2/3rds its value, I have to pay taxes on that as income if it's a PayPal transaction. Plus shipping to the buyer. I get he's a dealer and has to make some money. But "FMV" is around $2200-$2500 for a 7.0 ow/w. I've seen sales of 5.5 and 6.0 going for $2200. He's going to put that on his ebay listing at $2700-$3,000 and tell me about poverty. Meanwhile, I might have cleared $1300 if I had sold it to him. THAT'S the part I don't like as a seller. Which we agree on.

And I do admit there is a lot I don't understand about the whole thing. What I DO understand is the price point a lot of books are being set at are way off base.

[aleksicwon]

1 hour ago, Randall Ries said:

So, you are saying I'm confused when it's called a "buyers premium" and when I put the book into queue the premium is added to the sale price? I go to buy the 9.0 All Star 7 and there is a $300 add-on to the price plus tax and shipping and that's not a buyers premium?

The buyer is paying what he is willing to pay based on supply and demand . Everyone pays tax and shipping . This is fair market value . The seller is paying 20% commission .
If the seller wants to go and now buy the same book back , he has lost his buying power . It is the seller that is getting hurt . I am just explaining the facts . I don't want to get into any argument here and I don't see the need for one, I have just tried to be helpful to let you understand the facts , that is all . 

P.S. When you bid at HA , what you will pay is already displayed . There are no surprises when you go to checkout , no premium is "added" . 

This what you see under the bid button :
next bid : $95
w/bp : $114 

So you know you are bidding $114 . Who cares how it is reported . You know you are bidding $114 . 

Edited January 18, 2021 by aleksicwon

[lou_fine]

6 hours ago, Randall Ries said:

So, you are saying I'm confused when it's called a "buyers premium" and when I put the book into queue the premium is added to the sale price?

 

6 hours ago, aleksicwon said:

P.S. When you bid at HA , what you will pay is already displayed . There are no surprises when you go to checkout , no premium is "added" .

Not sure why there's any confusion here at all, as this has already been explained many times here before.  

With Heritage, there is no surprise buyer's premium added in at the end as all bidders should be well aware of the 20% BP and should have built this into their bid already.  If they haven't, it's really their own fault as Heritage clearly shows you what you will end up paying inclusive of this 20% BP if you hit the Bid button.  

By the way, it's really the consignor who ends up paying both ends of the fees if we assume no special deals negotiated which is usally not the case by the way..  A simple example is that if a book hammers for $1,000 this means the buyer will end up paying $1,200 (i.e. $1,000 plus 20% BP) which is the final price and also the one that shows up in GPA and GoCollect.  Nobody sees the $1,000 hammer price except while the auction is going on and is really an irrelevant number except for calculating the auction fees. 

The Seller's Premiums is usually 15% unless negotiated away or down depending upon the quality of your consignment.  This means the consignor will receive only $850 after deducting for the Seller's Premium (i.e. $1,000 less 15% BP).  Bottom line is that the consignor will end up receiving only $850 out of the $1,200 final sale or FMV as it is the SELLER who ends up paying for both the BP and the SP because this is the sum of the monies that he will not be seeing out of the sale.  

 

[aleksicwon]

 

38 minutes ago, lou_fine said:

The Seller's Premiums ... the SELLER who ends up paying for both the BP and the SP because this is the sum of the monies that he will not be seeing out of the sale.  

Whoa , this part I did not know ; that the seller is paying an additional "Seller's Premium" as well . That is just insane to me . 

[lou_fine]

9 minutes ago, aleksicwon said:

49 minutes ago, lou_fine said:

The Seller's Premiums ... the SELLER who ends up paying for both the BP and the SP because this is the sum of the monies that he will not be seeing out of the sale.  

Whoa , this part I did not know ; that the seller is paying an additional "Seller's Premium" as well . That is just insane to me . 

Surprised you were not aware of this as all auction houses charges the consignor a Seller's Premium.  

The good thing is that depending upon the quality and quanitity (i.e. total estimated dollar value, I would assume) of your consignment, this fee can apparently be given or negotiated down much closer to the 10% fee that is charged by both CC and CL.  

[aleksicwon]

7 hours ago, lou_fine said:

Surprised you were not aware of this as all auction houses charges the consignor a Seller's Premium.  

Never sold anything on auction . There is a first time for learning everything . 

[Funnybooks]

8 hours ago, lou_fine said:

Surprised you were not aware of this as all auction houses charges the consignor a Seller's Premium.  

The good thing is that depending upon the quality and quanitity (i.e. total estimated dollar value, I would assume) of your consignment, this fee can apparently be given or negotiated down much closer to the 10% fee that is charged by both CC and CL.  

The "fee" can also be zero or if the piece(s) is "unique", the pot can also be sweetened in other ways

[aleksicwon]

Just now, Funnybooks said:

The "fee" can also be zero or if the piece(s) is "unique", the pot can also be sweetened in other ways

Ok , so I guess the BP is never negotiated ? I heard this before of course , that the fee is negotiated . I was assuming it was the BP . Did not know there was a SP . Sounds like the seller is stuck with a 20% commission no matter what .

[Funnybooks]

10 minutes ago, aleksicwon said:

Ok , so I guess the BP is never negotiated ? I heard this before of course , that the fee is negotiated . I was assuming it was the BP . Did not know there was a SP . Sounds like the seller is stuck with a 20% commission no matter what .

BP is non-negotiable for the most part...Whale status circumstances aside...

SP may be negotiated if you are selling an item/items that are "very desirable" that the auction house must have

[Junkdrawer]

21 hours ago, aleksicwon said:

When I first started out , I had this confusion too . But is not correct . The buyer is buying at fair market value . The seller is the one getting burned . Let's say FMV is $500 ( as per GoCollect ) . You are likely to get the book at $500 . The seller however is only getting $417 ( 20% less for commission) . 

I don't know why they call it "buyer's premium" . I think it is a marketing gimmick to hide the fact that the seller is getting burned . It is just commission that seller has to pay .

It’s called the cost of doing business. You can sell it yourself on eBay, but there is a cost associated with that method. You could set up at a show or fleamarket, but you lose all the top buyers and won’t likely get better deal than Heritage, clink, cc, etc would also find a cost to do this too. Open up a brick and mortar...cost there as well. You have a book to sell, there will be a cost to do business. On the books, off the books, quick sell or hold out, avoid scammers and theft, possible armed robbery, or simply lost in the mail. Losing your book in any sense is a cost of doing business. 

[Funnybooks]

 

  21 hours ago, aleksicwon said:

When I first started out , I had this confusion too . But is not correct . The buyer is buying at fair market value . The seller is the one getting burned . Let's say FMV is $500 ( as per GoCollect ) . You are likely to get the book at $500 . The seller however is only getting $417 ( 20% less for commission) . 

I don't know why they call it "buyer's premium" . I think it is a marketing gimmick to hide the fact that the seller is getting burned . It is just commission that seller has to pay .

10 minutes ago, Junkdrawer said:

It’s called the cost of doing business. You can sell it yourself on eBay, but there is a cost associated with that method. You could set up at a show or fleamarket, but you lose all the top buyers and won’t likely get better deal than Heritage, clink, cc, etc would also find a cost to do this too. Open up a brick and mortar...cost there as well. You have a book to sell, there will be a cost to do business. On the books, off the books, quick sell or hold out, avoid scammers and theft, possible armed robbery, or simply lost in the mail. Losing your book in any sense is a cost of doing business. 

 

Agree with @Junkdrawer

 

The seller knows what the fees are leading into the transaction to sell on any of these platforms...HA, Ebay, C-Link. ComicConnect...I would hardly say that the seller is getting burned if they willingly decide to conduct business in this manner...

How else would an auction house make money unless they are charging a seller, a buyer or both?

Edited January 18, 2021 by Funnybooks