Heritage's Next Event Auction has started posting books !
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2,478 posts in this topic

14 hours ago, RareHighGrade said:

Can you give examples of the books you are referring to?

I mentioned West's Catman 25 as one example. It sat on Metro's site at $1,700 for at least a couple of years (2012–2013) as a raw 9.0; it just sold for $21,600 as a slabbed 9.2.

Even the WDC&S books that sold on Heritage over the summer went for staggering prices. (I bought one of them—for twice what I expected to pay.)

I'm not convinced that all of these books are as rare in high grade as the census makes them look, so prices like that seem very risky to me. I guess the guys contending for those books can afford the risk much better than I can. The demand for early Tecs and Actions isn't going away any time soon, but for the more offbeat stuff that I like, it might only take a couple of collectors exiting the hobby for prices to come way down—which would probably happen just when I needed to sell, if I were to try to compete. I'm 46, and I know that quite a few GA collectors are 10 or even 20 years older than I am, so I worry that If I try to sell my collection in 30 years, many of the potential buyers for the books I collect might be dead or retired from the hobby.

The thing is, where were these buyers with such deep pockets 8 years ago? It seems like there are buyers out there now who will pay whatever they have to to get a book without any regard to how the book has been valued in the past.

There have been strong sales before—for instance, the Mile High copy of Target 7 sold for $57,500 back in 2003—but those record-busting sales have typically been limited to major books. Target 7 is an important book in the hobby; Catman 25 isn't; it was always one of the issues with virtually no demand. (That price for the Target 7 still seems mind boggling to me by 2003 standards. I have no idea who the buyer was; if I did, I'd probably try to get him to adopt me. I wouldn't be above putting on a onesie and saying, "Ga-ga, goo-goo" with a pacifier in my mouth.)

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7 hours ago, jimbo_7071 said:

... it might only take a couple of collectors exiting the hobby for prices to come way down—which would probably happen just when I needed to sell,

thats a real concern sadly.  DC war books were super hot at times in the past decade until the primary "gotta have em at any price" collector exited the hobby.  As for Tecs and Actions never losing their values Im not sure thats completely correct. Aside from the keys, Ive witnessed wave patterns for both titles.  Actions were hot years ago and have cooled off. Too many silly covers in the run. Even the early ones like 17-30 dont explode when offered for sale.) And Detective has only recently heated up (goosed by the availability of Pennyworth HG gems you never see for sale) after tepidness for many years. (except for Joker covers! Even the lesser issues are hot as heck all the way thru the Bronze age. Whats the deal with Bat 251!!! This is the world we live in now, younger guys with money to burn snapping up everything in sight and prices that make out heads explode.

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1 hour ago, Aman619 said:

thats a real concern sadly.  DC war books were super hot at times in the past decade until the primary "gotta have em at any price" collector exited the hobby.  As for Tecs and Actions never losing their values Im not sure thats completely correct. Aside from the keys, Ive witnessed wave patterns for both titles.  Actions were hot years ago and have cooled off. Too many silly covers in the run. Even the early ones like 17-30 dont explode when offered for sale.) And Detective has only recently heated up (goosed by the availability of Pennyworth HG gems you never see for sale) after tepidness for many years. (except for Joker covers! Even the lesser issues are hot as heck all the way thru the Bronze age. Whats the deal with Bat 251!!! This is the world we live in now, younger guys with money to burn snapping up everything in sight and prices that make out heads explode.

We don't know at the top end whether there were 4/5 bidders or just to two collectors bidding against each other, HA does provide the number of bidders, but that number gets pumped up a bit with the same bidder bidding again, but it still could be a indication as to actual demand, so when you pay the worlds highest price for that book the danger is that you are in unknown territory. Just to break even Batman 1 2.2M it would be 440K additional buyers premium plus possible sales tax and shipping...at the minimum it would take say 2.64 plus shipping to break even...assuming no 200K sales tax. In the past, it has worked out, with Bob Overstreets genius price stepping over 50 years of not letting the market get totally out of control. Now there are no brakes on this price game, Overstreet is not considered a real price point, even GPA is somewhat behind the times, by just reporting what has taken place in the market. Some Books I think have a lot of life let in them, such as Cap#1...384K for the 8.5 is a solid buy, given the book and probably at some point it will be 500K in the next five  years, however remember you cannot use the auction price as a cost basis if it being resold on that market, even with a 10% auction premium and shipping it would take $422,000 just to break even PLUS $3,840 to cover the additional premium at 10% on the higher price so break even it would be $425,840 plus whatever shipping costs were involved in the buying of the book. When you bid, at least ADD 10% commission at least, plus the additional 10% of the 10% increase into my calculation, shipping and sales tax costs as what would be the break even point and THEN make the decision to buy with that knowledge, so the book you will hope will go up at least 11% plus shipping must have some potential upswing if you want to recover just you paid for it. If you are a speculator you had better add carrying costs of the loss of use of that money in asset which does not produce income. SO my point is when we see record prices and you buy the book partially as a collector and  investor always look at your exit cost. If you are a true comic book collector with resale with no intention of flipping it, making it part of your" permanent" collection you should be safe  in terms  of  recovery of what you paid provided you hold over the 10 or 20 year timeframe.

Edited by Mmehdy
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48 minutes ago, Randall Ries said:

As to HA, I am a little resentful of them. The sell price includes the buyers "premium" they have to pay to own the book. If I'm buying the Bat 1 9.4, I am also paying close to a mill(?) as a buyers fee?

When I first started out , I had this confusion too . But is not correct . The buyer is buying at fair market value . The seller is the one getting burned . Let's say FMV is $500 ( as per GoCollect ) . You are likely to get the book at $500 . The seller however is only getting $417 ( 20% less for commission) . 

I don't know why they call it "buyer's premium" . I think it is a marketing gimmick to hide the fact that the seller is getting burned . It is just commission that seller has to pay .

Edited by aleksicwon
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12 minutes ago, aleksicwon said:

When I first started out , I had this confusion too . But is not correct . The buyer is buying at fair market value . The seller is the one getting burned . Let's say FMV is $500 ( as per GoCollect ) . You are likely to get the book at $500 . The seller however is only getting $417 ( 20% less ) . 

I don't know why they call it "buyer's premium" . I think it is a marketing gimmick to hide the fact that the seller is getting burned . It is just commission that seller has to pay .

The same thing on real estate who is paying, they are saying seller...but in reality it the buyer cash....

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The seller fee is negotiable based on the relationship of the seller and the auction house and the quality of the book(s) submitted, so the 20% is merely a starting point. I would suspect this copy of Bat 1 had a very minimal seller fee to no seller fee or better.

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3 hours ago, Randall Ries said:

Even here, in the "want to buy" section, buyers mention they are willing to pay FMV for a given book

I always assume when people say FMV , they are talking about GoCollect or GPA data . On youtube channels that is what people mean at least . FMV is just what people are willing to currently pay . As for Overstreet guide , I have no idea what they are talking about . It seems to me those prices are what dealers would be willing to pay for a not slabbed comic . Again , I think gullible sellers are the target here .

Edited by aleksicwon
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3 hours ago, aleksicwon said:

When I first started out , I had this confusion too . But is not correct . The buyer is buying at fair market value . The seller is the one getting burned . Let's say FMV is $500 ( as per GoCollect ) . You are likely to get the book at $500 . The seller however is only getting $417 ( 20% less for commission) . 

I don't know why they call it "buyer's premium" . I think it is a marketing gimmick to hide the fact that the seller is getting burned . It is just commission that seller has to pay .

So, you are saying I'm confused when it's called a "buyers premium" and when I put the book into queue the premium is added to the sale price? I go to buy the 9.0 All Star 7 and there is a $300 add-on to the price plus tax and shipping and that's not a buyers premium? It seems like both the buyer and the seller are paying on both ends. I have to pay a premium when buying from CLINK as well. Definitely when I'm selling, too. Plus tax and shipping. Seems to me both the buyer and the seller are getting burned. That Bat 1 9.4 had a buyer premium of $500k attached to it. Did it cost HA $500k to host it? That book sold itself. They write a quick blurb "Yappity-Yap! It's a beauty and a rarity and an "attic find" (Baloney) and you WANT this! But almost ALL of you PEONS can't! Now BID!" It didn't need any help whatsoever from HA. Certainly not $500k worth. Unless I am mistaken, both the buyer and seller are getting hosed.

FMV (to me anyway) should more or less reflect the price guide AFAIC. I don't think the Overstreet guide is a wholesale manual instructing dealers what to pay sellers. It must be some of the reason why boarders here prefer to buy from other boarders. To not pay a premium and perhaps get a better price on a book they want. I mean $13,000 for a faded Wrightson signature on a graded copy of HOS 92 is way out of line. There was another for $15,000. I understand paying more for actual rare books but there is nothing rare or scarce about an HOS 92. No matter how it's spun. "Oh WELL! THIS one has WHITE PAGES! THIS one has a cutsie little blue STICKER from CGC saying it has perfect staple placement! THIS one says it has perfect centering! See? The sticker SAYS so! THIS is a 9.8 Bat 227! It's a PEDIGREE!" Yesterday, it was a $9k book on another site. Which was high. Sat there for months with a valid bid for over $7k. Which I thought was a generous offer. TODAY it's worth $30k? Bet Metro was watching the Pennyworth book to see how it would do at auction. And screw the guy who made a good offer. Suddenly their 9.8 is just as good as the Pennyworth. A 9.8 is a 9.8. Doesn't matter whose attic it was in AFAIC. Now Metro's is worth 5x what it was yesterday? I guess so.

Really don't think a seller should be complaining about "fees" when they put a "I Don't Want To Sell This Book" price on something and it sits for months or sometimes years.

And I find it odd when I go to sell a book, I get lowballed. And if I don't sell it at wholesale, I get to keep it. A dealer offered me $1575 for my All Star 7. An ebay dealer. Says he has fees. Yeah. And when I sell the book for 2/3rds its value, I have to pay taxes on that as income if it's a PayPal transaction. Plus shipping to the buyer. I get he's a dealer and has to make some money. But "FMV" is around $2200-$2500 for a 7.0 ow/w. I've seen sales of 5.5 and 6.0 going for $2200. He's going to put that on his ebay listing at $2700-$3,000 and tell me about poverty. Meanwhile, I might have cleared $1300 if I had sold it to him. THAT'S the part I don't like as a seller. Which we agree on.

And I do admit there is a lot I don't understand about the whole thing. What I DO understand is the price point a lot of books are being set at are way off base.

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1 hour ago, Randall Ries said:

So, you are saying I'm confused when it's called a "buyers premium" and when I put the book into queue the premium is added to the sale price? I go to buy the 9.0 All Star 7 and there is a $300 add-on to the price plus tax and shipping and that's not a buyers premium?

The buyer is paying what he is willing to pay based on supply and demand . Everyone pays tax and shipping . This is fair market value . The seller is paying 20% commission .
If the seller wants to go and now buy the same book back , he has lost his buying power . It is the seller that is getting hurt . I am just explaining the facts . I don't want to get into any argument here and I don't see the need for one, I have just tried to be helpful to let you understand the facts , that is all . 

P.S. When you bid at HA , what you will pay is already displayed . There are no surprises when you go to checkout , no premium is "added" . 

This what you see under the bid button :
next bid : $95
w/bp : $114 

So you know you are bidding $114 . Who cares how it is reported . You know you are bidding $114 . 

Edited by aleksicwon
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38 minutes ago, lou_fine said:

The Seller's Premiums ... the SELLER who ends up paying for both the BP and the SP because this is the sum of the monies that he will not be seeing out of the sale.  

Whoa , this part I did not know ; that the seller is paying an additional "Seller's Premium" as well . That is just insane to me . 

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9 minutes ago, aleksicwon said:
49 minutes ago, lou_fine said:

The Seller's Premiums ... the SELLER who ends up paying for both the BP and the SP because this is the sum of the monies that he will not be seeing out of the sale.  

Whoa , this part I did not know ; that the seller is paying an additional "Seller's Premium" as well . That is just insane to me . 

Surprised you were not aware of this as all auction houses charges the consignor a Seller's Premium.  :whatthe:

The good thing is that depending upon the quality and quanitity (i.e. total estimated dollar value, I would assume) of your consignment, this fee can apparently be given or negotiated down much closer to the 10% fee that is charged by both CC and CL.  (thumbsu

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7 hours ago, lou_fine said:

Surprised you were not aware of this as all auction houses charges the consignor a Seller's Premium.  :whatthe:

Never sold anything on auction . There is a first time for learning everything . 

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8 hours ago, lou_fine said:

Surprised you were not aware of this as all auction houses charges the consignor a Seller's Premium.  :whatthe:

The good thing is that depending upon the quality and quanitity (i.e. total estimated dollar value, I would assume) of your consignment, this fee can apparently be given or negotiated down much closer to the 10% fee that is charged by both CC and CL.  (thumbsu

The "fee" can also be zero or if the piece(s) is "unique", the pot can also be sweetened in other ways

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Just now, Funnybooks said:

The "fee" can also be zero or if the piece(s) is "unique", the pot can also be sweetened in other ways

Ok , so I guess the BP is never negotiated ? I heard this before of course , that the fee is negotiated . I was assuming it was the BP . Did not know there was a SP . Sounds like the seller is stuck with a 20% commission no matter what .

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10 minutes ago, aleksicwon said:

Ok , so I guess the BP is never negotiated ? I heard this before of course , that the fee is negotiated . I was assuming it was the BP . Did not know there was a SP . Sounds like the seller is stuck with a 20% commission no matter what .

BP is non-negotiable for the most part...Whale status circumstances aside...

SP may be negotiated if you are selling an item/items that are "very desirable" that the auction house must have

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21 hours ago, aleksicwon said:

When I first started out , I had this confusion too . But is not correct . The buyer is buying at fair market value . The seller is the one getting burned . Let's say FMV is $500 ( as per GoCollect ) . You are likely to get the book at $500 . The seller however is only getting $417 ( 20% less for commission) . 

I don't know why they call it "buyer's premium" . I think it is a marketing gimmick to hide the fact that the seller is getting burned . It is just commission that seller has to pay .

It’s called the cost of doing business. You can sell it yourself on eBay, but there is a cost associated with that method. You could set up at a show or fleamarket, but you lose all the top buyers and won’t likely get better deal than Heritage, clink, cc, etc would also find a cost to do this too. Open up a brick and mortar...cost there as well. You have a book to sell, there will be a cost to do business. On the books, off the books, quick sell or hold out, avoid scammers and theft, possible armed robbery, or simply lost in the mail. Losing your book in any sense is a cost of doing business. 

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  21 hours ago, aleksicwon said:

When I first started out , I had this confusion too . But is not correct . The buyer is buying at fair market value . The seller is the one getting burned . Let's say FMV is $500 ( as per GoCollect ) . You are likely to get the book at $500 . The seller however is only getting $417 ( 20% less for commission) . 

I don't know why they call it "buyer's premium" . I think it is a marketing gimmick to hide the fact that the seller is getting burned . It is just commission that seller has to pay .

10 minutes ago, Junkdrawer said:

It’s called the cost of doing business. You can sell it yourself on eBay, but there is a cost associated with that method. You could set up at a show or fleamarket, but you lose all the top buyers and won’t likely get better deal than Heritage, clink, cc, etc would also find a cost to do this too. Open up a brick and mortar...cost there as well. You have a book to sell, there will be a cost to do business. On the books, off the books, quick sell or hold out, avoid scammers and theft, possible armed robbery, or simply lost in the mail. Losing your book in any sense is a cost of doing business. 

 

Agree with @Junkdrawer

 

The seller knows what the fees are leading into the transaction to sell on any of these platforms...HA, Ebay, C-Link. ComicConnect...I would hardly say that the seller is getting burned if they willingly decide to conduct business in this manner...

How else would an auction house make money unless they are charging a seller, a buyer or both?

Edited by Funnybooks
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