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So, Why Has AF #15 Continued to Drop In Value?
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1,031 posts in this topic

3 hours ago, Sweet Lou 14 said:

Since I own a copy of the book, I'm also in Camp #1 ... but I'm not looking for crazy gains, I'm just looking for my investment to hold its value and perhaps gain steadily over the long haul

Which is almost a 100% certainty  for the long haul... 

Edited by GAMBIT
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15 hours ago, gadzukes said:

Definitely CT scraping (and small holes).  I've seen worse.  This actually still presents nicely from the front.  But look at the back cover..... 3 pieces are missing, 1 of which is sizable.

That is sad what was done to the spine. Look at how nice the right edge is, like zero Marvel chipping!.

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16 hours ago, gadzukes said:
17 hours ago, silverweb said:

That is sad what was done to the spine. Look at how nice the right edge is, like zero Marvel chipping!.

It was sad, but I can understand.  The owner wanted that Blue label

I think it's more than just wanting a blue label. It's wanting the value that a blue label brings.

The main reason this happens is pretty simple and has been discussed on here a lot in the past.

People don't know enough about evaluating restoration to value restored books properly and that price gap between restored books and unrestored books makes restored books very attractive to people who unrestore them for profit.

I still believe that the stigma of the purple label has exaggerated the effect that restored books have had on the market.

Until that changes, that gap will continue to spurn the industry for those who remove restoration.

 

 

Edited by VintageComics
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30 minutes ago, VintageComics said:

I think it's more than just wanting a blue label. It's wanting the value that a blue label brings.

The main reason this happens is pretty simple and has been discussed on here a lot in the past.

People don't know enough about evaluating restoration to value restored books properly and that price gap between restored books and unrestored books makes restored books very attractive to people who unrestore them for profit.

I still believe that the stigma of the purple label has exaggerated the effect that restored books have had on the market.

Until that changes, that gap will continue to spurn the industry for those who remove restoration.

 

 

It is always about $$$$$

Pressing for Profit.  Restoration Removal is all about Profit.  Married covers,  cleaning covers,  lightening and removing water stains, taping spines are for profit.

Micro trimming by Jason was for profit

Undisclosed restoration is for profit.

Love of the blue label has very little to do with it.  Love of the dollar bill is more like it.  

 

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1 hour ago, VintageComics said:

I think it's more than just wanting a blue label. It's wanting the value that a blue label brings.

The main reason this happens is pretty simple and has been discussed on here a lot in the past.

People don't know enough about evaluating restoration to value restored books properly and that price gap between restored books and unrestored books makes restored books very attractive to people who unrestore them for profit.

I still believe that the stigma of the purple label has exaggerated the effect that restored books have had on the market.

Until that changes, that gap will continue to spurn the industry for those who remove restoration.

 

 

I'm not a book flipper and I'm definitely not an expert on restoration, but I have to imagine that putting a dollar value on a restored book for flipping purposes would be a highly risky proposition unless you have the book in hand (i.e. not in a slab), know exactly what to look for, and can accurately envision what the book would look like (and what grade it would get) with that restoration removed.  Anyone who can do that successfully ... more power to 'em.

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1 hour ago, blazingbob said:

It is always about $$$$$

Pressing for Profit.  Restoration Removal is all about Profit.  Married covers,  cleaning covers,  lightening and removing water stains, taping spines are for profit.

Micro trimming by Jason was for profit

Undisclosed restoration is for profit.

Love of the blue label has very little to do with it.  Love of the dollar bill is more like it.  

 

The birth of the grading system brought alot of this into being. The realization that comics could be slightly altered and bring bagfuls of $$$ to your doorstep for a minimal investment.

I miss the good ole days when collectors ruled the market and you ordered back issues from a few comic companies. The word "resto" or "grade" was not born yet and the buzzwords were "read" and "enjoy".. 

 

Edited by peewee22
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5 hours ago, blazingbob said:

Love of the blue label has very little to do with it.  Love of the dollar bill is more like it.  

I believe you are both in agreement as that appears to be exactly what Roy is saying from the first line in his post:  (thumbsu

5 hours ago, blazingbob said:

I think it's more than just wanting a blue label. It's wanting the value that a blue label brings.

 

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6 hours ago, VintageComics said:

I still believe that the stigma of the purple label has exaggerated the effect that restored books have had on the market.

+1

Most definitely, as I believe we would not be in this same sad predicament if CGC had gone with a uni-color label from the get go which incorporated both the current 10-point grading system coupled with a similar 10-point restoration rating system at the same time.  (thumbsu

Sadly for all of the hobbyists, the ship has sailed on that long ago and books are now being "destoyed" in the hopes of getting the blue label, simply because the use of the multi-colored labels resulted in the unintended consequences of exacerbating the difference in value between restored books from the unrestored books.  :frown:

The 10-point grading system sure helped to make collectors become much more aware of the intricacies behind a book's condition and its associated grade.  The implementation of a 10-point restoration rating system right from the get go would have done the same thing for collectors in terms of the intricacies when it came to type and extent of restoration.  Unfortunately, the multi-colored label system was implemented instead, and restoration was dumbed down to the point so that all you had to know was the difference between blue and purple.  :facepalm:

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7 hours ago, lou_fine said:

+1

Most definitely, as I believe we would not be in this same sad predicament if CGC had gone with a uni-color label from the get go which incorporated both the current 10-point grading system coupled with a similar 10-point restoration rating system at the same time.  (thumbsu

Sadly for all of the hobbyists, the ship has sailed on that long ago and books are now being "destoyed" in the hopes of getting the blue label, simply because the use of the multi-colored labels resulted in the unintended consequences of exacerbating the difference in value between restored books from the unrestored books.  :frown:

The 10-point grading system sure helped to make collectors become much more aware of the intricacies behind a book's condition and its associated grade.  The implementation of a 10-point restoration rating system right from the get go would have done the same thing for collectors in terms of the intricacies when it came to type and extent of restoration.  Unfortunately, the multi-colored label system was implemented instead, and restoration was dumbed down to the point so that all you had to know was the difference between blue and purple.  :facepalm:

Your post is all well and good but the reality is that most buyers were slowly trained visually that blue meant unrestored.  CBCS went blue with Restored books and having bought one when I didn't look close enough I wasn't happy.  Don't assume the customer is smart enough to read what is on the label.  I have customers look at me with two heads when I explain what restored means on a raw book when they want to buy it.  I ask if they realize it is restored and they don't get it.  Colors they get,  explanations I might as well be speaking a foreign language.   

Edited by blazingbob
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11 hours ago, lou_fine said:

+1

 

Sadly for all of the hobbyists, the ship has sailed on that long ago and books are now being "destoyed" in the hopes of getting the blue label, simply because the use of the multi-colored labels resulted in the unintended consequences of exacerbating the difference in value between restored books from the unrestored books.  :frown:

 

Given the variety of new methods of making money in the grading biz, I don't tend to think there are ANY unintended consequences.  COLLECT THEM ALL! is more like it.  Those of us who did rather well with this stuff are the ones who acquired their comics fifty years ago and sat on them.  Absolute dummies for the most part. We bought them because we loved them. The last thing in the world I would want is a sealed slab where I couldn't read the comic. 

Edited by Glassman10
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On 11/16/2019 at 6:36 AM, blazingbob said:
On 11/15/2019 at 10:44 PM, lou_fine said:

+1

Most definitely, as I believe we would not be in this same sad predicament if CGC had gone with a uni-color label from the get go which incorporated both the current 10-point grading system coupled with a similar 10-point restoration rating system at the same time.  (thumbsu

Sadly for all of the hobbyists, the ship has sailed on that long ago and books are now being "destoyed" in the hopes of getting the blue label, simply because the use of the multi-colored labels resulted in the unintended consequences of exacerbating the difference in value between restored books from the unrestored books.  :frown:

The 10-point grading system sure helped to make collectors become much more aware of the intricacies behind a book's condition and its associated grade.  The implementation of a 10-point restoration rating system right from the get go would have done the same thing for collectors in terms of the intricacies when it came to type and extent of restoration.  Unfortunately, the multi-colored label system was implemented instead, and restoration was dumbed down to the point so that all you had to know was the difference between blue and purple.  :facepalm:

Your post is all well and good but the reality is that most buyers were slowly trained visually that blue meant unrestored.  CBCS went blue with Restored books and having bought one when I didn't look close enough I wasn't happy.  Don't assume the customer is smart enough to read what is on the label.  I have customers look at me with two heads when I explain what restored means on a raw book when they want to buy it.  I ask if they realize it is restored and they don't get it.  Colors they get,  explanations I might as well be speaking a foreign language.   

Bob;

In total and complete 100% agreement with you here since the multi-color label differentiation system is what CGC went with from the start.  My point was based on the premise of what might have happened if they had gone with a uni-color label system in conjunction with a 10-point Restoration Rating system right from the get go.  

So for example, let's look at it another way.  Do you think prices would be pretty much the same today if CGC had expanded their multi-color label system right from the get go to take into account say so-called "investment quality" grades?  How about if they had gone with a scarlet red label (i.e. SLOD lol) for any books below a CGC 9.8 for MA books, below a CGC 9.6 for CA books, below a CGC 9.4 for BA books, below a CGC 9.2 for post-1965 SA books, below a CGC 9.0 for pre-1965 SA books, below a CGC 8.5 for Atom Age books, below a CGC 8.0 for post-1940 GA books, below a CGC 6.0 for pre-1940 GA books?

Any bets that if CGC had added in an additional layer of discriminatory and stigmitizing color labels based upon grades right from the get go, your customers would not be smart enough to understand the difference between the various grades to the same extent they do nowadays.  You may as well be speaking to them in a completely foreign language when it comes to grading at that point, as they would simply look at the colors and avoid anything with a scarlet red label.  hm

Edited by lou_fine
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On 11/16/2019 at 9:36 AM, blazingbob said:

Your post is all well and good but the reality is that most buyers were slowly trained visually that blue meant unrestored.  CBCS went blue with Restored books and having bought one when I didn't look close enough I wasn't happy. 

I did the same thing, buying a restored CBCS book without realizing it.

There are two reasons for this.

1) we were already programmed to associate blue with unrestored, so introducing a blue label for restored books caused some confusion.

2) the restored notation wasn't very clearly notated - the print / font was small and the label wasn't well designed. They've since cleaned that up.

 

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2 hours ago, lou_fine said:

In total and complete 100% agreement with you here since the multi-color label differentiation system is what CGC went with from the start.  My point was based on the premise of what might have happened if they had gone with a uni-color label system in conjunction with a 10-point Restoration Rating system right from the get go.  

Agreed. The masses are generally reactive to their surroundings and adapt to whatever is provided to them.

Had they been forced to differentiate between blue label unrestored and blue label restored, they'd not only learn to read the labels, they'd be forced to learn to understand resto better.

People need to be motivated to learn new things and when you dumb stuff down you remove the motivation.

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47 minutes ago, VintageComics said:
3 hours ago, lou_fine said:

In total and complete 100% agreement with you here since the multi-color label differentiation system is what CGC went with from the start.  My point was based on the premise of what might have happened if they had gone with a uni-color label system in conjunction with a 10-point Restoration Rating system right from the get go.  

Agreed. The masses are generally reactive to their surroundings and adapt to whatever is provided to them.

Had they been forced to differentiate between blue label unrestored and blue label restored, they'd not only learn to read the labels, they'd be forced to learn to understand resto better.

People need to be motivated to learn new things and when you dumb stuff down you remove the motivation.

+1

Yes indeed, as "forced" education of the collector base with respect to the various types and extent of restoration would have served both the hobby and marketplace well, as opposed to implementing a system which simply dumbed it down to blue and purple.  :facepalm:

Edited by lou_fine
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9 hours ago, VintageComics said:

I did the same thing, buying a restored CBCS book without realizing it.

There are two reasons for this.

1) we were already programmed to associate blue with unrestored, so introducing a blue label for restored books caused some confusion.

2) the restored notation wasn't very clearly notated - the print / font was small and the label wasn't well designed. They've since cleaned that up.

 

It should be

1. Blue

2. Green

3. Purple

End of discussion

 

4. Conserved (the blue shade is a bit confusing after 1st glance)

 

CBCS blue label is horrible.  hard to argue for it.  I myself get tricked all the time, then I read the label closer.   I don't like CGC conserved blue label.  they should make a different color if they want to designate as being conserved.

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9 hours ago, Spiderturtle said:

CBCS blue label is horrible.  hard to argue for it.  I myself get tricked all the time, then I read the label closer.   I don't like CGC conserved blue label.  they should make a different color if they want to designate as being conserved.

This is only because CGC initially started with multi-colored labels. If they had started with a blue label for restored and unrestored books, you'd have been programmed to read the label first.

When you go to buy Bick's Dill Pickles, do you just walk up and pick a bottle by the color of the label? They all look the same. Of course not. You choose the brand by the color of the label but you READ the label and choose the specific type you want. Why? Because you expect the writing to be different on the labels even though all the labels are the same color.

Baby Dill with Garlic for me, please.

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6 minutes ago, VintageComics said:

This is only because CGC initially started with multi-colored labels. If they had started with a blue label for restored and unrestored books, you'd have been programmed to read the label first.

When you go to buy Bick's Dill Pickles, do you just walk up and pick a bottle by the color of the label? They all look the same. Of course not. You choose the brand by the color of the label but you READ the label and choose the specific type you want. Why? Because you expect the writing to be different on the labels even though all the labels are the same color.

Baby Dill with Garlic for me, please.

I get that but I've been programmed, I can't erase my programing.  i'm proud to own a "blue label" of blah blah grail instead of a purple.  The brain is no longer willing to change when it wants what it wants-A blue label over a Purple label.  That's one reason I don't want a CBCS label

Edited by Spiderturtle
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