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So, Why Has AF #15 Continued to Drop In Value?
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1,031 posts in this topic

20 minutes ago, VintageComics said:

This is only because CGC initially started with multi-colored labels. If they had started with a blue label for restored and unrestored books, you'd have been programmed to read the label first.

When you go to buy Bick's Dill Pickles, do you just walk up and pick a bottle by the color of the label? They all look the same. Of course not. You choose the brand by the color of the label but you READ the label and choose the specific type you want. Why? Because you expect the writing to be different on the labels even though all the labels are the same color.

Baby Dill with Garlic for me, please.

A good model for any business marketing is to have a different color labeling.  M & M's yellow = nut inside M & M's black - plain inside.  It's best when the masses do not have to read the label.  I don't want to eat the wrong M & M's because I didn't read the unicolor M & Ms therefore I love myself the yellow colored  M & M over the black colored M & M.  That's why there's a marketing department.  CBCS marketing gets an F++++++ for having a blue label for restored books

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50 minutes ago, Spiderturtle said:

A good model for any business marketing is to have a different color labeling.  M & M's yellow = nut inside M & M's black - plain inside.  It's best when the masses do not have to read the label.  I don't want to eat the wrong M & M's because I didn't read the unicolor M & Ms therefore I love myself the yellow colored  M & M over the black colored M & M.  That's why there's a marketing department.  CBCS marketing gets an F++++++ for having a blue label for restored books

Besides Blue is so soothing when you get a low grade when you expected higher.  

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1 hour ago, Spiderturtle said:

A good model for any business marketing is to have a different color labeling.  M & M's yellow = nut inside M & M's black - plain inside.  It's best when the masses do not have to read the label.  I don't want to eat the wrong M & M's because I didn't read the unicolor M & Ms therefore I love myself the yellow colored  M & M over the black colored M & M.  That's why there's a marketing department.  CBCS marketing gets an F++++++ for having a blue label for restored books

Actually, it depends on what the goal of the marketing is.

CGC did a disservice to the hobby as a whole in the long run by using a purple label from the gate. It seemed like a good idea but it had the negative effect of stigmatizing restored books in purple holders and creating such a large gap in the market that unrestoring books has become a secondary industry (something people disapprove of).

And there are many people who feel this way. Borock did 15 years ago but CGC wouldn't make the change. It's why they went with it at CBCS. Other long time collectors feel the same way.

I have no doubt that if CGC had started with a blue label for both restored and unrestored books, that nobody would feel they need to be separated but we are looking back after 20 years of having it this way and it's hard to separate ourselves from 20 years of habits.

 

Edited by VintageComics
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20 minutes ago, VintageComics said:

Actually, it depends on what the goals of the marketing is.

CGC did a disservice to the hobby as a whole in the long run by using a purple label from the gate. It seemed like a good idea but it had the negative effect of stigmatizing restored books in purple holders and creating such a large gap in the market that unrestoring books has become a secondary industry (something people disapprove of).

And there are many people who feel this way. Borock did 15 years ago but CGC wouldn't make the change. It's why they went with it at CBCS. Other long time collectors feel the same way.

I have no doubt that if CGC had started with a blue label for both restored and unrestored books, that nobody would feel they need to be separated but we are looking back after 20 years of having it this way and it's hard to separate ourselves from 20 years of habits.

 

The market for restored (purple) vs unrestored (blue) is fluid; its always changing.  the hobby is always evolving or changing.  For me its restored vs unrestored.  Its not unrestored blue vs purple or Blue vs restored blue.  If CBCS wants to confuse me by putting  both types of book in a blue label then more power to them.  I agree to disagree that its no good for me (and i'm sure lots of other collectors).  Yes, if i'm gonna spend money, I will stop myself and read that label so that I don't waste money by being tricked

Edited by Spiderturtle
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3 hours ago, Spiderturtle said:

The market for restored (purple) vs unrestored (blue) is fluid; its always changing.  the hobby is always evolving or changing.  For me its restored vs unrestored.  Its not unrestored blue vs purple or Blue vs restored blue.  If CBCS wants to confuse me by putting  both types of book in a blue label then more power to them.  I agree to disagree that its no good for me (and i'm sure lots of other collectors).  Yes, if i'm gonna spend money, I will stop myself and read that label so that I don't waste money by being tricked

The market is fluid and it's also a collective. This discussion over the years has always yielded a mixed response. But it was generally fifty / fifty. Many people see the benefit of not having a different coloured label.

My point isn't really directed at you as much as it is towards what CGC's responsibility is in the market.

CGC is responsible for levelling the playing field by rooting out scammers who try to deceive by hiding resto (among other things, including over grading, etc) and offering an impartial grade.

But once a company becomes so large that they dictate the market, they have a responsibility to also give the market a fair representation because they now affect the market. It's the same in most industries. Once a company becomes so large that it becomes a monopoly the rules change for that company.

having different colors has created a stigmatization that prevents market perception from being impartial, if you will. One color is thought of as being better than another. 

Ironically, the Canadian cigarette market has actually gone this route of removing flashy colors from packaging. Cigarette sellers are no longer allowed fancy packaging to differentiate their brands. It's the same brown label for everyone with just the name brand printed on the label.

Why?

Because colors affect the way people choose.

https://globalnews.ca/news/5226488/canada-plain-packaging-tobacco/

 

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2 hours ago, KPR Comics said:

Roy, are you arguing that there should be no price differential b/w restored and unrestored?

Of course not.

I'm saying that the purple label created a stigma that has created an un-natural price difference, and this huge price difference has caused savvy buyers to unrestore restored books for profit.

I'm saying that if all labels were equal from the start, that this 2ndary market wouldn't have formed.

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"I'm saying that if all labels were equal from the start, that this 2ndary market wouldn't have formed"

?  This sure looks like an indirect way of saying that if the labels were the same color restored books would sell closer to what blue labels would.

 

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45 minutes ago, VintageComics said:

Of course not.

I'm saying that the purple label created a stigma that has created an un-natural price difference, and this huge price difference has caused savvy buyers to unrestore restored books for profit.

I'm saying that if all labels were equal from the start, that this 2ndary market wouldn't have formed.

I take a more simplistic view that it is the resto not the color of the label that drives market behavior.  

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9 minutes ago, KPR Comics said:

I take a more simplistic view that it is the resto not the color of the label that drives market behavior.  

We've gone on a tangent now and you're talking about something different than we were discussing earlier.

Nobody is saying restored books shouldn't sell for less than unrestored.

Every market reacts to how information is disseminated. That is the discussion.

Edited by VintageComics
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43 minutes ago, blazingbob said:

"I'm saying that if all labels were equal from the start, that this 2ndary market wouldn't have formed"

?  This sure looks like an indirect way of saying that if the labels were the same color restored books would sell closer to what blue labels would.

 

They likely would, but I don't understand why that would be a problem.

This whole discussion started because people were complaining in this thread that removing restoration from books destroys them and all I am saying is that I believe that if there weren't different colored labels, you probably wouldn't have the same price gaps between restored and unrestored books opening the doors to the resto removal market.

Personally, I don't care either way. It doesn't affect me what restored books sell for in any way.

I'm just having the discussion for the benefit of people who wish that restored books didn't have resto scraped off of them.

Edited by VintageComics
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2 hours ago, VintageComics said:

They likely would, but I don't understand why that would be a problem.

This whole discussion started because people were complaining in this thread that removing restoration from books destroys them and all I am saying is that I believe that if there weren't different colored labels, you probably wouldn't have the same price gaps between restored and unrestored books opening the doors to the resto removal market.

Personally, I don't care either way. It doesn't affect me what restored books sell for in any way.

I'm just having the discussion for the benefit of people who wish that restored books didn't have resto scraped off of them.

If we can go back in time and polled 10,000 collectors and asked if they wanted  their slabs in different color labels the majority would opt for the different colors.   Anyone that spends their hard earned money will spend accordingly and do his or her research .  The label  color doesn’t make a difference to me, it’s the Restored vs unrestored.  I find cbcs blue to be deceptive.  I’ve seen many instances were eBay sellers trick the buyers into thinking it’s an unrestored blue on a cbcs Restored book. Either by being vague by saying you get what you see.  That means if you don’t read what’s on the label then it’s your fault.  Which is 100 percent true but very deceptive. I hope Cgc will keep its 3 color designation as is.

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13 hours ago, VintageComics said:

They likely would, but I don't understand why that would be a problem.

This whole discussion started because people were complaining in this thread that removing restoration from books destroys them and all I am saying is that I believe that if there weren't different colored labels, you probably wouldn't have the same price gaps between restored and unrestored books opening the doors to the resto removal market.

Personally, I don't care either way. It doesn't affect me what restored books sell for in any way.

I'm just having the discussion for the benefit of people who wish that restored books didn't have resto scraped off of them.

Regardless of what color a restored book is in if the price differential between restored/unrestored is worth the cost and the work can get removed it will get removed.  Which brings us back to your wanting restored books to sell closer to unrestored so that restored books don't get chopped up.

You can always become the Pro-Restoration advocate.  Buy restored books and educate the masses based on the different types of restoration why they deserve the pricing closer to unrestored copies.  As they sell you will lead by example,  not by posting.  Numbers don't lie.

Edited by blazingbob
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32 minutes ago, blazingbob said:

Regardless of what color a restored book is in if the price differential between restored/unrestored is worth the cost and the work can get removed it will get removed.  Which brings us back to your wanting restored books to sell closer to unrestored so that restored books don't get chopped up.

You can always become the Pro-Restoration advocate.  Buy restored books and educate the masses based on the different types of restoration why they deserve the pricing closer to unrestored copies.  As they sell you will lead by example,  not by posting.  Numbers don't lie.

I don't know why you're making this discussion about me. I don't 'want' anything here.

I really don't care what restored books sell for because it doesn't affect me in any way (just as I never have cared).

The discussion went on a tangent when people were complaining that books were getting 'destroyed' to remove resto.

I gave the opinion that if both restored and unrestored books were slabbed in a uniform label color, we probably wouldn't have as large a price differential between the two because people would probably understand restored books better and that would close the price gap. You might disagree or agree but there are facts to support my opinion from other types of marketing. 

But stop making it about me as it makes no difference to me.

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10 hours ago, Spiderturtle said:

I find cbcs blue to be deceptive.  I’ve seen many instances were eBay sellers trick the buyers into thinking it’s an unrestored blue on a cbcs Restored book. Either by being vague by saying you get what you see.  That means if you don’t read what’s on the label then it’s your fault.  Which is 100 percent true but very deceptive. I hope Cgc will keep its 3 color designation as is.

I understand people not realizing that a restored book can be in a blue label after CGC has set a precedent of having only unrestored books in a blue label for 16 years prior.

What I don't understand is how the label can be deceptive when something is clearly written on the label.

Deceptive sellers I understand. They are around in every aspect of life. But it's not the label's fault in that case. (shrug)

Anyway, I think this discussion has run it's course. We're just starting to go in circles.

 

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CBCS tried playing hide the ball with restoration disclosure with its labels and all that did was make ALL their slabs sell for cut rate prices and brought that company to the edge of bankruptcy and virtual irrelevance.  

So I would say that the market has spoken with regards to easy to see and understand colour coded labeling and restoration disclosure.

-J.

Edited by Jaydogrules
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2 minutes ago, Jaydogrules said:

CBCS tried playing hide the ball with restoration disclosure with its labels and all that did was make ALL their slabs sell for cut rate prices and brought that company to the edge of bankruptcy and virtual irrelevance.  

So I would say that the market has spoken with regards to easy to see and understand colour coded labeling and restoration disclosure.

-J.

I don't think the Restored blue labels were a driving factor.  More like overgrading doesn't translate into higher retail prices and once you ruin your reputation it is very hard to get it back

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