How good of a deal is too good of a deal? 1 1

[Bookery]

5 minutes ago, miraclemet said:

fair point, I would caveat my "educate yourself" position to say that there is enough information out there that even if you didnt have the time to become versed enough to know WHAT the items were worth, you could at least become educated enough to know that there was a chance they were worth SOMETHING. And then yes as you said, you shop the collection around and see what offers you get... 

Also no one wants to pay for the evaluation of collections, but that is one way to have a collection assessed with less possibility of a screwjob (not no possibility, but less)

All true.  However, sometimes your options for appraisers are limited, depending upon where you live.  Most of the time, the experts in your area ARE dealers.  I don't appraise collections anymore (as an official paid appraiser, obviously... as a dealer, I'm always appraising collections) precisely because I don't want to be out of the loop for buying the collection.  A seller should always educate themselves about how best to sell a collection, so I don't disagree with the numerous posts above.  It's just that it doesn't have to mean knowing details about the collection itself... it can also mean knowing how to ascertain from others whether it's really valuable or not... and that includes proper appraisers and/or trustworthy dealers.  If my car breaks down, I don't want to have to research everything about my model to learn what it is, how to fix it, and what it should cost.  What I do, instead, is research through word-of-mouth or reviews who is a trusted repair mechanic, and go to them.  Sometimes, even with research it might not work out... but most times it will.

[Bookery]

4 minutes ago, kav said:

You discussed every possibility except the one I was actually talking about-Guy comes in with VERY valuable book and asks YOU 'how much will you give me for this?'  Let's say it's a book worth $100,000.  

Even that's a complicated question.  If the person can't tell me anything about the book, its provenance, what their expectations are even in the roughest ballpark... and it's just a single book floating all by its lonesome in the wild... I am really going to assume it is stolen.  I will offer nothing for the book, but will, however, offer my video record and the seller's license plate number to the police when they inevitably come and ask if I've seen said book.  

[LordRahl]

7 minutes ago, kav said:

You discussed every possibility except the one I was actually talking about-Guy comes in with VERY valuable book and asks YOU 'how much will you give me for this?'  Let's say it's a book worth $100,000.  

I have no idea what you're talking about. Below is the exact quote of yours that I responded to and there is no "guy comes in with VERY valuable book..." scenario.

"50 to 400 is not unethical.  Its still a lot of workd to list sell and ship.  Most people would just want the quick 50.  50 to 5000 is unethical." 

[RockMyAmadeus]

17 minutes ago, kav said:

Would it be an honest move? 

Yes.

17 minutes ago, kav said:

Do you concede that an uneducated person, upon hearing "I'd be willing to pay $5" would assume that is your best offer or very near your best?

No. There is nothing in "this is what I'd be willing to pay" that implies that that is at, or near, my best offer.

29 minutes ago, kav said:

And it wouldnt be. 

The interesting thing about negotiation is that it's dynamic, not static. What may be my position at the beginning of negotiation may not be my position at the end. Being willing to pay more doesn't mean being able to pay more. Of what value is offering $500,000 if I don't have it? I'm absolutely willing to pay $500,000 for a "NM" Detective #27, right now, no questions asked, please take my money. 

I don't have $500,000 to spend. 

Am I willing to pay $500,000? Oh, you bet, without a doubt. Am I able? Nope.

31 minutes ago, kav said:

Isnt it sneaky, at least? 

No. It's only "sneaky" to those who judge by the appearance, rather than the substance.

33 minutes ago, kav said:

I know some people are screaming virtue signalling they can think that if it comforts them. 

I know some people are screaming muh feelings; likewise, if it comforts them, they are free to think that.

37 minutes ago, kav said:

Discussing ethics does not automatically equal virtue signalling though.

True. It is only when people virtue signal that it equals virtue signalling.

[RockMyAmadeus]

It comes down to this: buyer and seller agree on a price, absent coercion, deceit, and manipulation by either party. Everything else is window dressing.

[theCapraAegagrus]

6 minutes ago, RockMyAmadeus said:

...Everything else is window dressing.

say wut

[Bird]

7 minutes ago, RockMyAmadeus said:

It comes down to this: buyer and seller agree on a price, absent coercion, deceit, and manipulation by either party. Everything else is window dressing.

exactly

 

[newshane]

22 hours ago, Westy Steve said:

Situation #1.  Someone offers you a comic book collection for $50.  You buy it, and after you total it up, you're pleasantly surprised with the value of some of the items not immediately known to you, and then with some labor on your part, end up selling it all for $400.  Is that unethical?

Situation #2.  Someone offers you a comic book collection.  They say, "make me an offer".  You see it's worth $400 retail.  You offer them $50 and they take the offer.  Is that more unethical?

How big of a profit is unethical?  You should get compensated for your time and effort to sell something, but how much is too much in Situation #1 and Situation #2?

 

Situation 1 - no, it's not unethical 

Situation 2 - no, it's not unethical

It would be unethical if lies were told in the process. 

It's up to the seller to know what he has, and the buyer to know what he's getting. 

[revat]

 if the amount of profit determines the ethicalness, who determines where the line is?  Is it sheer dollar value?  A percentage? an arbitrary smell test?  The finances of the buyer?  The seller?  Where can I get an equation to determine if each sale is legit?

What if Bill Gates is selling a $100K comic to me for $5?  What if I'm selling him a $5 comic for $100K?  Where is the line?  HOw much is Bill Gates (or a lawyer who normally charges $1000/hr) time worth?

What if I sell a nickel comic for $5? 

Or buy 400 boxes of comics for a dime per comic, with a chance to profit $200-500K.  But certainly all the work and time I put into selling has value?  Or does it? Who decides?

 

I would agree its nice to be nice, and there are some situations where IT WOULD BE NICER to inform someone or not try to maximize every dollar, but I certainly wouldn't call it unethical if all parties are consenting (functionally) competent adults and agree on a price without any lies or manipulation.

[LordRahl]

43 minutes ago, RockMyAmadeus said:

It comes down to this: buyer and seller agree on a price, absent coercion, deceit, and manipulation by either party. Everything else is window dressing.

This times a bajillion. It is unethical (and perhaps illegal depending on the circumstances) to coerce, deceive and manipulate. It is not unethical to buy something at an agreed upon price regardless of how great a deal it is. 

[the blob]

2 hours ago, Bookery said:

Here's another reason why the "educate yourself" rule can't always work.  Sure... comics are actually easier to look up than most collectibles.  But what if you... yes, even those of you on this board... and other heirs inherited a large rare book collection from your long forgotten grand-uncle.  You're named executor.  Would you know the difference between a bookclub and a publisher's edition?  Each book and each publisher has a different way of designating (or not even designating) first editions... would you know the differences in all of the thousands and thousands of possibilities?  Look it up, they say!  Where?  How?  Most eBay sellers wouldn't have a clue as to what they have... and the vast majority of what they state is wrong.  This is also true of ABE (American Book Exchange)... one assumes these dealers know their stuff.  A few do.  Most don't.  Do you have any way of knowing which is which?  You're executor of an estate... you don't have years to do this.

Do you know movie posters?  What's an original, what's a re-release, what's a reproduction, and what's just a plain forgery?  Some pulps don't come up for sale for years.  You can't just check them out on eBay.  And it goes on and on with coins, stamps, etc., etc.  Comics may seem easy to look up for us, but for many it's an impossible quagmire if you haven't spent years immersed in it.  What do you do?

You take them to a dealer and trust they won't screw you over.  You don't need to educate yourself about the value of your collection.  You do need to educate yourself as to which dealers are trustworthy and which exist only under the "buyer beware" dictum.

You take them to a dealer and pay for an appraisal with the understanding that you will not be selling to them. You take them to a reputable auction house and they will figure out a ballpark for them. There are lots of ways of limit how skrewed over you get.

[Karl Liebl]

In the end education is the key.  People can just walk away, but it doesn't mean you have to keep your mouth shut about it.  Revat I got question about that long box deal you got...  Why did the woman take the time to post a Craig's list add?  Was she just being nice?  I think she was kind of mean.  She should have just hauled all that guys stuff out to the street for trash pick up.  Also the guy was an insufficiently_thoughtful_person and taking advantage of the lady and deserved what he got.

[Bookery]

Of course, for all of this discussion, it's been often about unlikely scenarios.  Yes... I will take the time to educate my customers about a collection if they desire.  But let's get real... 90% of the time the education involves explaining to them why their comics are NOT worth what they think they are.  In this day and age, the person who woefully undervalues what they have is pretty rare.

[Bookery]

5 minutes ago, the blob said:

You take them to a dealer and pay for an appraisal with the understanding that you will not be selling to them. You take them to a reputable auction house and they will figure out a ballpark for them. There are lots of ways of limit how skrewed over you get.

That's fine, if a knowledgeable dealer will do that.  (I will not... I do not wish to be unable to bid or make an offer on them).  And, an auction house is a dealer... so a reputable auction house is the same dif as a reputable dealer.  The key word is "reputable".

[kav]

1 hour ago, LordRahl said:

I have no idea what you're talking about. Below is the exact quote of yours that I responded to and there is no "guy comes in with VERY valuable book..." scenario.

"50 to 400 is not unethical.  Its still a lot of workd to list sell and ship.  Most people would just want the quick 50.  50 to 5000 is unethical." 

You said if someone came in and asked 'will you give me $5 for this book' and you said you would.  I am asking what if he asked 'how much will you give me for this book?'.

See the difference?

[revat]

3 minutes ago, Karl Liebl said:

In the end education is the key.  People can just walk away, but it doesn't mean you have to keep your mouth shut about it.  Revat I got question about that long box deal you got...  Why did the woman take the time to post a Craig's list add?  Was she just being nice?  I think she was kind of mean.  She should have just hauled all that guys stuff out to the street for trash pick up.  Also the guy was an insufficiently_thoughtful_person and taking advantage of the lady and deserved what he got.

Honestly, the house was fairly big and old and there were A LOT of boxes, all upstairs in a back bedroom, some of the boxes falling apart.  And no disrespect to the I think the husband, but while he was likely in his twenties, his build was sleight. And they had three kids, including a newborn (sounds tiring).  I think they just wanted the books GONE, and didn't want to carry them all out themselves.  I don't believe they had any idea of the value, nor did they care.  The books were from a roommate who had long since moved out and hadn't come back for them (presumably after several warnings).

[Karl Liebl]

1 minute ago, revat said:

Honestly, the house was fairly big and old and there were A LOT of boxes, all upstairs in a back bedroom, some of the boxes falling apart.  And no disrespect to the I think the husband, but while he was likely in his twenties, his build was sleight. And they had three kids, including a newborn (sounds tiring).  I think they just wanted the books GONE, and didn't want to carry them all out themselves.  I don't believe they had any idea of the value, nor did they care.  The books were from a roommate who had long since moved out and hadn't come back for them (presumably after several warnings).

I would not be inviting strangers in my house to haul out some trash except !-800-Got Junk maybe...  maybe...

[kav]

1 hour ago, RockMyAmadeus said:

1 hour ago, kav said:

Discussing ethics does not automatically equal virtue signalling though.

True. It is only when people virtue signal that it equals virtue signalling.

Look I know we've had our differences but I am trying to have a civil conversation.  Saying I am 'virtue signalling' is an attack.  There's no need for that.  

[LordRahl]

2 minutes ago, kav said:

You said if someone came in and asked 'will you give me $5 for this book' and you said you would.  I am asking what if he asked 'how much will you give me for this book?'.

See the difference?

Yes I do see the difference and it has absolutely nothing to do with your original statement above that 50 to 5000 is unethical as it relates to the OP's original scenario, which is what we have been talking about this whole time. But now that you are changing it so as to bolster whatever it is that your argument is (which I'm frankly not that sure of anymore), let me answer your latest question. What if he asked "how much will you give me for this book" and it's a $100K book. My answer is I'd give him whatever I could if I wanted the book. But let me be clear... if I were to say "I'll give you $5" for that book, there is nothing unethical about that. He's not asking "what is this book valued at" or "in your expert opinion, what should I sell this for". I'm not lying to him or deceiving him. I'm simply telling him how much I'll give him for it. Maybe I don't really want the book. Maybe I don't know that it's worth $100K. Maybe all I have is $5 to my name. Doesn't matter. He is free to accept and or reject my $5 offer. This is what you don't seem to get. An offer that is made with no attempt to deceive, manipulate etc isn't unethical. It is simply an offer of what someone is willing to pay, whether it's a starting offer to solicit further negotiation or just a casual take it or leave it I don't care offer. 

[RockMyAmadeus]

9 minutes ago, kav said:

1 hour ago, RockMyAmadeus said:

1 hour ago, kav said:

Discussing ethics does not automatically equal virtue signalling though.

True. It is only when people virtue signal that it equals virtue signalling.

Look I know we've had our differences but I am trying to have a civil conversation.  Saying I am 'virtue signalling' is an attack.  There's no need for that. 

Unfortunately, I don't know what you're talking about. I was agreeing with your statement. No one said you (or anyone) were virtue signalling. Perhaps you've confused me with someone else...? 

 

Edited July 2, 2019 by RockMyAmadeus