The Amazing Spider-Man #667 Dell'Otto variant resurfaces
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For the record: anyone telling you they know how many copies were printed of ASM #667 Dell'Otto...or most books from the past 30 years...are telling you something that they don't know, and have not confirmed.

The only...and that means the only...people who know how many copies were printed and distributed are the people at Marvel (specifically the circulation dept. which decides print runs), possibly Diamond, and the printer. 

That's it.

What we DO know? Marvel has historically never printed anything in "case pack" numbers, ever. Does that mean they didn't or couldn't? Of course not; publishers can, and have, printed editions in 100, 50, 25, 10, and even single copies (IDW.)

But that isn't anything Marvel has done. Is that conclusive evidence? No. It's certainly, however, compelling circumstantial evidence. 

Until the people who made the decisions make the information public, we will never know how many were printed, and anyone telling you otherwise is just guessing.

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23 minutes ago, RockMyAmadeus said:

For the record: anyone telling you they know how many copies were printed of ASM #667 Dell'Otto...or most books from the past 30 years...are telling you something that they don't know, and have not confirmed.

The only...and that means the only...people who know how many copies were printed and distributed are the people at Marvel (specifically the circulation dept. which decides print runs), possibly Diamond, and the printer. 

That's it.

What we DO know? Marvel has historically never printed anything in "case pack" numbers, ever. Does that mean they didn't or couldn't? Of course not; publishers can, and have, printed editions in 100, 50, 25, 10, and even single copies (IDW.)

But that isn't anything Marvel has done. Is that conclusive evidence? No. It's certainly, however, compelling circumstantial evidence. 

Until the people who made the decisions make the information public, we will never know how many were printed, and anyone telling you otherwise is just guessing.

THIS. :sumo: In spades.

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*sigh*

Just because certain people are not privy to certain information that others are, does not mean that said information does not exist.  In spades.:grin:

-J.

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Just because certain people do not have access to certain documents does not mean those documents do not exist.  :whistle:

-J.

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5 hours ago, RockMyAmadeus said:

Jay's investigative analysis is flawed, because it doesn't take into account that the "large sales of the preceding issue" was due to the store variant gimmick. When you take out the "500 copies per store mandatory ordering" for the store variant, the numbers for the issue (#666) are fairly typical (in this case, "fairly typical" meaning "average orders for the time, plus a bit of a bump for the start of the storyline, plus whatever extras of the regular book were ordered because of the store gimmick.")

Was the book overlooked? Of course. Was it printed to the tune of "a case or less"? Of course not. Where are "the rest"? Who knows? Marvel and Diamond do, and they aren't telling (and won't tell.)

The census has shown an average of about 5 copies added a year since 2011, which includes an additional 7 copies this year alone. The census does not indicate anything except broad trends, and should not be used to come to any decisive conclusions about anything other than how many times the issue (NOT how many copies!) have passed through CGC's hands.

Will more show up? Anything is possible, but yes, obviously more will show up. The price pressure is far, far too great for those who paid "nothing" for the book when it came out. 

How many crack and resubmits on the census?

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8 minutes ago, ygogolak said:

How many crack and resubmits on the census?

I personally know of three (one went up a grade, one stayed the same, and one blue 9.8 that turned into a 9.8 SS).

But never mind that, there are the same couple people who will beat this long dead horse until the thread is locked (again).

-J.

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4 hours ago, RockMyAmadeus said:

If you can't document it...if you can't prove it...it's only speculation.

"Anonymous sources say..." has no value.

There were MORE than 225 copies printed.  

my source said so. :baiting:

 

Hell, Chuck's sitting on a few cases of them.  :whistle:

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3 hours ago, Jaydogrules said:

there are the same couple people who will beat this long dead horse until the thread is locked (again).

Yes indeed . . . you.

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3 hours ago, ygogolak said:

How many crack and resubmits on the census?

Nobody knows (not even CGC), which is why the census is only good for showing broad trends and potentials...not hard numbers. The only way...literally, the only way...that anyone can prove that a book has been cracked and resubmitted but NOT removed from the census is if they have the old label in their possession. That's why the census only shows the most potential copies...not the most actual unique copies (although, of course, those numbers CAN still be the same.)

Just because someone knows a "crackout" occurred doesn't mean those labels weren't turned in. And just because the census doesn't go down doesn't necessarily mean the labels weren't turned in: another submission could easily "cancel out" the turned in label if the two events occur at the same time. 

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2 hours ago, joecgcmaniac said:

There were MORE than 225 copies printed.  

my source said so. :baiting:

 

Hell, Chuck's sitting on a few cases of them.  :whistle:

I have a couple of pallets in a warehouse in DC...in fact, there's a picture of me wheeling several cases in:

indiana-jones-raiders-warehouse.jpg&f=1

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6 minutes ago, RockMyAmadeus said:

I have a couple of pallets in a warehouse in DC...in fact, there's a picture of me wheeling several cases in:

indiana-jones-raiders-warehouse.jpg&f=1

Wrong! rantrant

 

That picture is your "secret stash" of Marvel's U.S. 1, issue 3.  :whistle:

 

:baiting:

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6 hours ago, RockMyAmadeus said:

I have a couple of pallets in a warehouse in DC...in fact, there's a picture of me wheeling several cases in:

indiana-jones-raiders-warehouse.jpg&f=1

Heh. Apt. The Thor #156 rated a CGC 10 was found in a warehouse...

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On 7/11/2019 at 12:39 AM, RockMyAmadeus said:

Nobody knows (not even CGC), which is why the census is only good for showing broad trends and potentials...not hard numbers. The only way...literally, the only way...that anyone can prove that a book has been cracked and resubmitted but NOT removed from the census is if they have the old label in their possession. That's why the census only shows the most potential copies...not the most actual unique copies (although, of course, those numbers CAN still be the same.)

Just because someone knows a "crackout" occurred doesn't mean those labels weren't turned in. And just because the census doesn't go down doesn't necessarily mean the labels weren't turned in: another submission could easily "cancel out" the turned in label if the two events occur at the same time. 

I believe a relative comp to the book is the Batman 608 RRP. The census numbers - again flawed but the best number we can show - show a total number of 308 copies graded in all grades in all types (blue, purple, yellow, green) as of 6/19/19 on a book released in 2003 that has a significant premium paid for CGC graded copies. That number is ticking up very slowly, so think we can make a pretty educated guess at this point that the total number of existent copies isn't much more than about 500-750.

I think we'll be able to have a pretty educated guess on the ASM in about 10 years.

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23 hours ago, FlyingDonut said:

I believe a relative comp to the book is the Batman 608 RRP. The census numbers - again flawed but the best number we can show - show a total number of 308 copies graded in all grades in all types (blue, purple, yellow, green) as of 6/19/19 on a book released in 2003 that has a significant premium paid for CGC graded copies. That number is ticking up very slowly, so think we can make a pretty educated guess at this point that the total number of existent copies isn't much more than about 500-750.

I think we'll be able to have a pretty educated guess on the ASM in about 10 years.

hm

Erm....

No.

Much like the Bats608RRP, submissions to CGC for the ASM 667 started hitting the census within ~six months of their initial distribution (actually the ASM 667 started hitting the census about 3 weeks after its release, which means it has an even longer history of submissions than the 608RRP over the same 8 year period).

And after 8 years of submissions the 608RRP stood at...

247 copies.  

After a comparable period of 8 years, the 667 stands at about 42. 

Yeah.. 

That's over 200 copies less than 608RRP during the same time frame. 

Considering that the highest estimates of the 608RRP are 500-600, the notion that there would be as many as 750 copies of the ASM 667 is patently absurd on its face (using your own criteria).

That, and the fact that the printer's invoice to Diamond specifically states that only one single case pack of about 225 copies was produced also blows a hole in your presumptions.  So no need for guesswork.  (thumbsu

-J.

 

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43 minutes ago, Jaydogrules said:

That, and the fact that the printer's invoice to Diamond specifically states that only one single case pack of about 225 copies was produced also blows a hole in your presumptions.  So no need for guesswork. 

Documentation, please.

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3 hours ago, Jaydogrules said:

hm

Erm....

No.

Much like the Bats608RRP, submissions to CGC for the ASM 667 started hitting the census within ~six months of their initial distribution (actually the ASM 667 started hitting the census about 3 weeks after its release, which means it has an even longer history of submissions than the 608RRP over the same 8 year period).

And after 8 years of submissions the 608RRP stood at...

247 copies.  

After a comparable period of 8 years, the 667 stands at about 42. 

Yeah.. 

That's over 200 copies less than 608RRP during the same time frame. 

Considering that the highest estimates of the 608RRP are 500-600, the notion that there would be as many as 750 copies of the ASM 667 is patently absurd on its face (using your own criteria).

That, and the fact that the printer's invoice to Diamond specifically states that only one single case pack of about 225 copies was produced also blows a hole in your presumptions.  So no need for guesswork.  (thumbsu

-J.

 

Please note that nowhere in my post do I talk about the numbers of existent copies of the ASM 667. My post is discussing numbers of submitted copies of the Batman 608 and drawing a relative conclusion as to the same thing happening with the ASM 667.

Like I said, we will have a relatively good call on the number of ASM 667s in about 10 years based on submissions to the CGC census of the ASM 667.

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1 hour ago, FlyingDonut said:

Please note that nowhere in my post do I talk about the numbers of existent copies of the ASM 667. My post is discussing numbers of submitted copies of the Batman 608 and drawing a relative conclusion as to the same thing happening with the ASM 667.

Like I said, we will have a relatively good call on the number of ASM 667s in about 10 years based on submissions to the CGC census of the ASM 667.

Putting aside the notion that it would take nearly 20 years for us to know something based on the census that is already known based on the Diamond' printer's invoice for the book, and again, using your own criteria, how do you account for the more than 200 additional submitted copies of the 608RRP over the same nearly decade length of time that we already have as a comparison for submissions between the two books?

Or, put another way, after 8 years, the 608RRP had nearly one-half of its estimated print run submitted to and graded by CGC.  If the ASM 667 were following that trajectory then that would mean there are less than 100 copies of that book in existence (actually a possibility given that half or more of the single case pack that was printed was rumored to have been damaged during distribution). 

-J.

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