SUPERMAN 4 VS ACTION COMICS 23 3 3

[Black Captain]

1 minute ago, G.A.tor said:

The only thing I can extrapolate is that it appears the action 23 story was finished and copyright filed before Superman 4 was 

so luthor “first” appears in action 23, followed by Superman 4 

which one was sold first or was available to the public first cant and will never truly be known as it most certainly varied over different locales 

man interesting research project would be to locate copies with date stamps and compare  

 

I think this comment raps up all the loose questions

[Joshua33]

47 minutes ago, G.A.tor said:

The only thing I can extrapolate is that it appears the action 23 story was finished and copyright filed before Superman 4 was 

so luthor “first” appears in action 23, followed by Superman 4 

which one was sold first or was available to the public first cant and will never truly be known as it most certainly varied over different locales 

An interesting research project would be to locate copies with date stamps and compare  

 

When I was researching, the person who posted the copyright dates also gave the newsstand dates and had a factual source. I'll have to find and post it as soon as I can find it again (looked through a lot of info). 

[Lazyboy]

49 minutes ago, G.A.tor said:

The only thing I can extrapolate is that it appears the action 23 story was finished and copyright filed before Superman 4 was 

so luthor “first” appears in action 23, followed by Superman 4 

which one was sold first or was available to the public first cant and will never truly be known as it most certainly varied over different locales 

An interesting research project would be to locate copies with date stamps and compare  

 

Different locales are irrelevant. Date stamps are irrelevant. Only the first copy on sale matters, not the last. If you don't think at least one vendor in New York had the book available on the official release date, I don't know what to tell you.

We have an official date for Superman 4 from a house ad. We're only unsure about the date for Action 23.

[Lazyboy]

1 hour ago, Black Captain said:

Considering all this new information

It may be new to you, but there's really no new information here.

[Jaydogrules]

This entire thread is irrelevant.  

-J.

[Joshua33]

14 minutes ago, Jaydogrules said:

This entire thread is irrelevant.  

-J.

You sure have taken up half the thread. What does that say? 

[Joshua33]

Ok, On sale date from Ad in Action 22 shows newsstand date of 02/15/1940. Publication date (earliest possible date a publication can be sold, as it is not copyrighted prior) for Action 23 is 02/23/1940. Superman 4 was unquestionably available before Action 23. I also understand it was the publisher's intent to have Action 23 drop first. That is why it has the first Luthor story with Superman, and had the first copyright application. Problem solved. 

[Black Captain]

57 minutes ago, Joshua33 said:

Ok, On sale date from Ad in Action 22 shows newsstand date of 02/15/1940. Publication date (earliest possible date a publication can be sold, as it is not copyrighted prior) for Action 23 is 02/23/1940. Superman 4 was unquestionably available before Action 23. I also understand it was the publisher's intent to have Action 23 drop first. That is why it has the first Luthor story with Superman, and had the first copyright application. Problem solved. 

Well no Joshua33, the measure you established throughout the thread were the actual dates that Superman #4 and Action #23 hit the stands to be purchased. NOT the earliest possible date a book could be sold based on publication. That is a different measure from the measure you have utilized throughout this thread. Without actual proof such as date stamps on Superman #4 and Action Comics #23 to concretely establish even the handling dates of the stores that handled the books for sale only a guess can be made either way.

And considering that copyright dates, publication dates, stamp dates, monthly vs quarterly distribution dates, HELL even local availability for store selling are all in question then No, Superman #4 was not unquestionably available before Action Comics #23. To be that definite after all these considerations makes no logical sense.

At best sale availability is questionable as Gator stated and the content of Action #23 points to a Luther 1st appearance. That is all we know as actual facts. Which means that there is no reason to make any actual changes UNLESS date stamps on Superman #4 and Action Comics #23 can be found. I don't know how long you have been in the hobby but, this is a time honored method that the community has utilized and honored throughout our history to settle such matters.  Find that evidence and you will have unquestionable evidence.

Edited July 22, 2019 by Black Captain

[Comicdey]

Since I have a Superman 4 but not the action I’ll lean towards Supes 4 but the whole argument that one story leads to a first appearance over another can be skewed.  Origins get retold all the time with the character being first implemented and those are never first appearance just because the story would make you believe it....just sayin...

 

supes could easily have know of lex Luther before he actually met him 🤔

[Joshua33]

5 minutes ago, Black Captain said:

Well no Joshua33, the measure you established throughout the thread were the actual dates that Superman #4 and Action #23 hit the stands to be purchased. NOT the earliest possible date a book could be sold based on publication. That is a different measure from the measure you have utilized throughout the this thread. Without actual proof such as date stamps on Superman #4 and Action Comics #23 to concretely establish even the handling dates of the stores that handled the books for sale only a guess can be made either way.

And considering that copyright dates, publication dates, stamp dates, monthly vs quarterly distribution dates, HELL even local availability for store selling are all in question then No, Superman #4 was not unquestionably available before Action Comics #23. To be that definite after all these considerations makes no logical sense.

At best sale availability is questionable as Gator stated and the content of Action #23 points to a Luther 1st appearance. That is all we know as actual facts. Which means that there is no reason to make any actual changes UNLESS date stamps on Superman #4 and Action Comics #23 can be found. I don't know how long you have been in the hobby but, this is a time honored method that the community has utilized and honored throughout our history to settle such matters.  Find that evidence and you will have unquestionable evidence.

I cant help you if you want to go against DC itself. The "ON SALE DATE" published by DC COMICS in ACTION COMICS 22 is 02/15/1940. If you want to try and make an argument that the publisher would put the on sale date out there for their customers and then somehow tale the business risk of not making it available on said date... good luck to you. Dont think anybody is EVER gonna buy that one.

As for ACTION 23. THE UNITED STATES COPYRIGHT OFFICE didnt issue COPYRIGHT APPROVAL until 02/23/1940. The book cannot be sold BEFORE that date. 

End of discussion. 

If you want to try and introduce conjecture and hyperbole, that's all it is. The above are FACTS buddy. Sorry you dont like them. 

[Black Captain]

5 minutes ago, Joshua33 said:

I cant help you if you want to go against DC itself. The "ON SALE DATE" published by DC COMICS in ACTION COMICS 22 is 02/15/1940. If you want to try and make an argument that the publisher would put the on sale date out there for their customers and then somehow tale the business risk of not making it available on said date... good luck to you. Dont think anybody is EVER gonna buy that one.

As for ACTION 23. THE UNITED STATES COPYRIGHT OFFICE didnt issue COPYRIGHT APPROVAL until 02/23/1940. The book cannot be sold BEFORE that date. 

End of discussion. 

If you want to try and introduce conjecture and hyperbole, that's all it is. The above are FACTS buddy. Sorry you dont like them. 

Sorry Joshua33, these assertions were already disregarded by DC's lack of control over distribution to hit the stands for sale. We are all beyond your response. We are now waiting for traditional/ time honored store placed date stamp evidence. Please provide.

[Jaydogrules]

6 minutes ago, Black Captain said:

Sorry Joshua33, these assertions were already disregarded by DC's lack of control over distribution to hit the stands for sale. We are all beyond your response. We are now waiting for traditional/ time honored store placed date stamp evidence. Please provide.

Or we could just go by what DC has stated on its own official site.  Here it is again:

https://www.dccomics.com/characters/lex-luthor

Yeesh.  What a waste of time this has all been.  

-J.

[Joshua33]

6 minutes ago, Black Captain said:

Sorry Joshua33, these assertions were already disregarded by DC's lack of control over distribution to hit the stands for sale. We are all beyond your response. We are now waiting for traditional/ time honored store placed date stamp evidence. Please provide.

Ok. Now "we are all beyond your response". Glad you speak for the community. Show me proof, other than what another boardie said, that DC had little to no control over distribution. That is a non factual argument with zero proof. Proof goes both ways. I have no burden of proof with date stamps. I have already shown US patent office dates, and DC publicated 'on sale' dates as proof of my argument. You are assuming that those pieces of information ( even though they are FAR MORE RELIABLE than your opinion) are somehow, maybe, possibly wrong. The burden of proof isnt on me. It's on you. I'll wait...

[Jaydogrules]

2 minutes ago, Joshua33 said:

Ok. Now "we are all beyond your response". Glad you speak for the community. Show me proof, other than what another boardie said, that DC had little to no control over distribution. That is a non factual argument with zero proof. Proof goes both ways. I have no burden of proof with date stamps. I have already shown US patent office dates, and DC publicated 'on sale' dates as proof of my argument. You are assuming that those pieces of information ( even though they are FAR MORE RELIABLE than your opinion) are somehow, maybe, possibly wrong. The burden of proof isnt on me. It's on you. I'll wait...

...and you're still ignoring the elephant in the room that renders all other superfluous curiosities meaningless;

https://www.dccomics.com/characters/lex-luthor

-J.

[Lazyboy]

7 hours ago, Lazyboy said:

8 hours ago, Jaydogrules said:

Hmmm, yeah, nah.

Think I'll just slice through all that nonsense you just posted with something from DC's own wikia:

https://www.dccomics.com/characters/lex-luthor

-J.

It's nice that's DC's online character bio (what wikia?) says that, but the publishers have a history of being inconsistent and even just wrong sometimes. If you look deeper and click on the link for his first appearance, they give Action 23 a print release date of March 31, 1940. Oops, that doesn't help your argument.

No response to this post? What a shock.

[Lazyboy]

43 minutes ago, Black Captain said:

Well no Joshua33, the measure you established throughout the thread were the actual dates that Superman #4 and Action #23 hit the stands to be purchased. NOT the earliest possible date a book could be sold based on publication. That is a different measure from the measure you have utilized throughout this thread. Without actual proof such as date stamps on Superman #4 and Action Comics #23 to concretely establish even the handling dates of the stores that handled the books for sale only a guess can be made either way.

And considering that copyright dates, publication dates, stamp dates, monthly vs quarterly distribution dates, HELL even local availability for store selling are all in question then No, Superman #4 was not unquestionably available before Action Comics #23. To be that definite after all these considerations makes no logical sense.

At best sale availability is questionable as Gator stated and the content of Action #23 points to a Luther 1st appearance. That is all we know as actual facts. Which means that there is no reason to make any actual changes UNLESS date stamps on Superman #4 and Action Comics #23 can be found. I don't know how long you have been in the hobby but, this is a time honored method that the community has utilized and honored throughout our history to settle such matters.  Find that evidence and you will have unquestionable evidence.

How long have you been in the hobby? Do you even know anything about comics?

[Lazyboy]

32 minutes ago, Joshua33 said:

As for ACTION 23. THE UNITED STATES COPYRIGHT OFFICE didnt issue COPYRIGHT APPROVAL until 02/23/1940. The book cannot be sold BEFORE that date.

Um... are you sure that's how copyright works?

[Joshua33]

2 minutes ago, Jaydogrules said:

...and you're still ignoring the elephant in the room that renders all other superfluous curiosities meaningless;

https://www.dccomics.com/characters/lex-luthor

-J.

Not ignoring it. I have AGREED countless times that DC Comics recognizes Action 23 as Luthors first. I have agreed that the Story contained in Action 23 suggests Superman is meeting Luthor for the first time. I have additionally acknowledged that DC INTENDED for the Action book to be released first, based on US PATENT NO. Do you know why, I have agreed to all of those things? Because the facts are STARING ME RIGHT IN THE FACE.

Controversely, i find it funny that i have provided facts that Superman 4 went on sale before Action 23, and you're so obviously upset with that occurence that you continue to argue against a point I'm not trying to make. 

[Joshua33]

6 minutes ago, Lazyboy said:

Um... are you sure that's how copyright works?

I am, yes. According to the US copyright office, the issuance of copyright does this for the publisher...

Copyright, a form of intellectual property law, protects original works of authorship including literary, dramatic, musical, and artistic works, such as poetry, novels, movies, songs, computer software, and architecture. Copyright does not protect facts, ideas, systems, or methods of operation, although it may protect the way these things are expressed. 

NOBODY, LEAST OF ALL DC, is selling a book before their intellectual property is guaranteed protection by the US office. If they didnt care, why apply for it in the first place? Pretty cut and dry.

[N e r V]

Here is a copy of Action Comics #23 with an arrival date of February 23 penciled on it.