SUPERMAN 4 VS ACTION COMICS 23 3 3

[ThothAmon]

On 1/18/2020 at 12:44 AM, skypinkblu said:

I like the cover of Action 23  a little better and it was the first GA comic book I ever read so I'm a bit biased. I've also always thought that was Lois on the cover of Action 23.

Me too. This thread reminds me of a former supervisor who would say “how many angels can dance on the head of a pin”?

[Gotham Kid]

high grade (1 of 2 but this one has better PQ) Action 23 going to auction

https://comics.ha.com/itm/golden-age-1938-1955-/action-comics-23-dc-1940-cgc-vf-85-off-white-to-white-pages/p/7224-259003.s?ic4=GalleryView-ShortDescription-071515

 

[bluechip]

On 7/19/2019 at 11:54 PM, Joshua33 said:

I have read both stories and agree with you. It basically boils down to INTENT VS PUBLICATION with me. I dont think Overstreet and CGC are taking this seriously. You are in one of two camps. In Action 23, Superman is introduced to Luthor. In Superman 4, WE are introduced to Luthor. Which is more important? If history has taught us anything (Spiderman Symbiote), newsstand date eventually closes its case. 

He wins the logic award, but this hobby is not always logical.

[manofsteel]

Is the character on the cover of Sups 4, Lex? Not the bald guy, the guy to the left of Sups running. 

[Joshua33]

18 hours ago, manofsteel said:

Is the character on the cover of Sups 4, Lex? Not the bald guy, the guy to the left of Sups running. 

I dont think so. Early Luthor panels showed him rocking identifiably ginger hair.

[Joshua33]

On 1/18/2020 at 9:20 AM, Jaydogrules said:

And when does DC officially state Superman 4 was released ... ?

https://m.readdc.com/Superman-1939-2011-4/digital-comic/T0823700045001

Oops.

-J.

Right. My point was not to agree with you on the accuracy of DCs website. There is already SOLID PROOF that they are inaccurate. If they have the correct dates, explain to me why the pictures on page 12 of this thread literally prove the books dropped on the 15th and 22nd? Did you miss those? Too much evidence flying in the face of your twisted logic. We get it buddy. You own an Action 23. It has been and always will be more valuable to collectors than Superman 4, but it still hit newsstands a week later. 

-Don Quixote 

[manofsteel]

Just wondering, there is a guy in eBay selling a Sups 4 saying that it's the first Lex on a cover. 

[Joshua33]

14 hours ago, manofsteel said:

Just wondering, there is a guy in eBay selling a Sups 4 saying that it's the first Lex on a cover. 

As far as I know, that would be incorrect. Many people make the assumption that Lex is the bald guy on the cover. A few years back, a guy that's a Superman aficionado explained the cover to me (he owns full runs of both Action and Superman including first issues). I thought it was Lex as well. He also explained the significance of Superman 4 as a book. Superman 4 is the first Superman book with ALL brand new Superman stories. #1 and #2 both were strip reprints and 3 was partial reprints and partial new stories. 

[manofsteel]

I'm going to send him a message asking about it. I'll report back when I hear. 

[Crowzilla]

On 7/20/2019 at 2:54 AM, Joshua33 said:

 You are in one of two camps. In Action 23, Superman is introduced to Luthor. In Superman 4, WE are introduced to Luthor. Which is more important? If history has taught us anything (Spiderman Symbiote), newsstand date eventually closes its case. 

Spider-man symbiote? Are you really comparing two 80s books that came out six months apart to two GA books that were issued at nearly the same time?

And even if you do such a thing, how do you explain the price difference between Adventure 40 and World's Fair 39?

[Joshua33]

46 minutes ago, Crowzilla said:

Spider-man symbiote? Are you really comparing two 80s books that came out six months apart to two GA books that were issued at nearly the same time?

And even if you do such a thing, how do you explain the price difference between Adventure 40 and World's Fair 39?

Not trying to compare the books at all. Not trying to ascribe a higher price to Superman 4 either. I'm just interested in the historical accuracy of the Action 23 newsstand date vs the Superman 4 newsstand date. I feel that CGC and Overstreet should make some sort of notation for Supes 4. Don't care if it changes the "value" at all. 

[Joshua33]

Here is ComicConnects latest description for their copy of Superman 4...

crm/ow pgs
Joe Shuster cvr/art; 1st Luthor (Spring 1940); This book appeared on newsstands BEFORE Action 23
As Holmes had Moriarty and Flash Gordon had Ming the Merciless, so did Superman have Lex Luthor, the tortured, evil genius hell bent on world domination and the subjugation of the Kryptonian hero. In only his second appearance, Luthor is established as a money-mad, power-crazed menace, using a convoluted scheme involving oil wells and real estate to conquer the business world and the American landscape, and capturing the attention of a certain reporter--superhero in the process. Early Man of Steel tales were almost mundane in scale, with Supes taking on such depression-era scapegoats as robber barons, gangsters, greedy tycoons, and corrupt pols, making Luthor's operatic badness stand out from the pack. Though even in this instance, Siegel and Shuster still trafficked in the street-level nefariousness that came to define their early plotting. Also of note is the bald baddie on the cover. He can't possibly be Luthor, who still sports his original shock of red hair in the interior tale, but could this follically challenged cover cameo have spurred Siegel's later alteration of the ginger-tressed villain within? Hmm?

Edited May 19, 2020 by Joshua33
Spell

[markseifert]

On 7/22/2019 at 10:39 AM, Crowzilla said:

Totally Agree.

When we think of street dates today, we think of one day a week where all product is released to the public (like Wednesdays now for comics, or Tuesdays for DVDs/CDs, even if the actual product has been in the warehouse for a week or more), but looking at advertised "on sale dates" and arrival dates on comics for these books, it was all over different days of the weeks, giving a lot of support to the "as soon as you get it, put it out on the stands" distribution model.

Look at the Superman ad on sale dates Nerv posted - #4 is on a Thursday (2/15) #5 is on a Friday (5/10), #6 is a Wednesday (7/10), #7 is a Tuesday (9/10), and the penciled arrival dates on the Actions he posted are Wednesday, Thursday, and Friday.

Scanned the thread real quick and didn't see what I'm about to post, but apologies if I missed it. For the record:

The controlling law for how this works is the Copyright Act of 1909. The date of publication as listed in that statute is "held to be the earliest date when copies of the first authorized edition were placed on sale, sold, or publicly distributed."

In reality, however...

I've looked at this data from the source LoC volumes a lot.  Keep in mind this data was self-reported by the publishers upon filing. Mistakes are common. Estimating or outright fudging dates is common (obvious from publishers who report publication on the same day every month no matter what, regardless of weekend/weekday etc etc).  Reporting older dates well after the fact is not unheard of. These dates are a very long ways from unassailable. It is also not unheard of to see penciled or stamped arrival dates BEFORE the LoC copyright date listed.

All this said, Jack Liebowitz was far more careful about the paperwork than most, and I personally think that Supes #4 likely hit first.  It's certainly a debatable point, though.

[Joshua33]

31 minutes ago, markseifert said:

Scanned the thread real quick and didn't see what I'm about to post, but apologies if I missed it. For the record:

The controlling law for how this works is the Copyright Act of 1909. The date of publication as listed in that statute is "held to be the earliest date when copies of the first authorized edition were placed on sale, sold, or publicly distributed."

In reality, however...

I've looked at this data from the source LoC volumes a lot.  Keep in mind this data was self-reported by the publishers upon filing. Mistakes are common. Estimating or outright fudging dates is common (obvious from publishers who report publication on the same day every month no matter what, regardless of weekend/weekday etc etc).  Reporting older dates well after the fact is not unheard of. These dates are a very long ways from unassailable. It is also not unheard of to see penciled or stamped arrival dates BEFORE the LoC copyright date listed.

All this said, Jack Liebowitz was far more careful about the paperwork than most, and I personally think that Supes #4 likely hit first.  It's certainly a debatable point, though.

Correct. There are multiple copies of Action 23 and Superman 4, that boardies were kind enough to share, that support this timeline through date stamps as well.

[Professor K]

Member circumstances brought me here. Thank you circumstances.  So what is the overall consensus? Sup 4 hit the stands first but AC 23 is clearly the first LL story?  I love a good mystery but not enough to read 15 pages of posts. Little help?

Best I can do is this. DC Database says Sup 4 1st appearance and AC 23  first appearance chronologically. I have a restored AC 23 so I'd really like to know.

Edited June 22, 2022 by Professor K

[woowoo]

On 6/21/2022 at 7:03 PM, Professor K said:

Member circumstances brought me here. Thank you circumstances.  So what is the overall consensus? Sup 4 hit the stands first but AC 23 is clearly the first LL story?  I love a good mystery but not enough to read 15 pages of posts. Little help?

Best I can do is this. DC Database says Sup 4 1st appearance and AC 23  first appearance chronologically. I have a restored AC 23 so I'd really like to know.

Luther was in Superman 4 first they just don't want to change it because it would kill the value on Action 23.........................Just like Action 29 is not the first Lois Lane cover bunch of Dumb Overstreet people scared to change the things it has had for 40 plus years.

[circumstances]

On 6/21/2022 at 10:03 PM, Professor K said:

Member circumstances brought me here. Thank you circumstances.  So what is the overall consensus? Sup 4 hit the stands first but AC 23 is clearly the first LL story?  I love a good mystery but not enough to read 15 pages of posts. Little help?

Best I can do is this. DC Database says Sup 4 1st appearance and AC 23  first appearance chronologically. I have a restored AC 23 so I'd really like to know.

Something like that. In Action 23 Supes doesn't know who Luthor is, in Supes 4 Luthor says "we meet again," or something like that.

From the Grand Comics Database:

 

Indexer Notes

The first story with Luthor was in Action Comics #23 (cover date April 1940). Superman asks "Who is Luthor?"
This is the second Luthor story. Luthor says "We encounter each other once more".
However this issue may have gone on sale before Action Comics #23. In their copyright registration, Detective Comics, Inc. said Action Comics #23 was published Feb 23, 1940. An in-house ad said Superman #4 would go on sale Feb 15; the copyright registration said that it was published Jan 23. Officially, per DC Comics web site, Luthor's first appearance is in Action Comice #23."

[woowoo]

On 6/21/2022 at 8:19 PM, circumstances said:

Something like that. In Action 23 Supes doesn't know who Luthor is, in Supes 4 Luthor says "we meet again," or something like that.

From the Grand Comics Database:

 

Indexer Notes

The first story with Luthor was in Action Comics #23 (cover date April 1940). Superman asks "Who is Luthor?"
This is the second Luthor story. Luthor says "We encounter each other once more".
However this issue may have gone on sale before Action Comics #23. In their copyright registration, Detective Comics, Inc. said Action Comics #23 was published Feb 23, 1940. An in-house ad said Superman #4 would go on sale Feb 15; the copyright registration said that it was published Jan 23. Officially, per DC Comics web site, Luthor's first appearance is in Action Comice #23."

So you agree Superman 4 was the first Luther Action 23 was first time you hear the name Luther 

[circumstances]

On 6/21/2022 at 11:35 PM, woowoo said:

So you agree Superman 4 was the first Luther Action 23 was first time you hear the name Luther 

Pretty sure Supes 4 hit the stands first, with the 2nd Luthor story.

[Jaydogrules]

On 6/21/2022 at 7:03 PM, Professor K said:

Member circumstances brought me here. Thank you circumstances.  So what is the overall consensus? Sup 4 hit the stands first but AC 23 is clearly the first LL story?  I love a good mystery but not enough to read 15 pages of posts. Little help?

Best I can do is this. DC Database says Sup 4 1st appearance and AC 23  first appearance chronologically. I have a restored AC 23 so I'd really like to know.

I'll make it really easy for you.  

Here's what the actual publisher says.

https://www.dccomics.com/characters/lex-luthor

The rest is nothing but irrelevant white noise from people who ain't got the right book.  

-J.