When will the other shoe drop with CGC and the 'crack, press, and resub' game? 3 3

[Logan510]

1 hour ago, crassus said:

So if I understand this correctly, its important that the graders don't know which books are pressed, because if they did they might be obliged to acknowledge it and then some books would be known to be pressed while others wouldn't, and of course the books that are known to be pressed would sell for less than the one's that (at least) might not be pressed, and well that would be a disincentive for people to press books, since nobody would want them. Do I have that right?

There's no way to prove that. I know several people who have pressed books in their collections...I have several pressed books in my collection. I think it's more fair to say it's a big deal for some and not a big deal for others.

[kav]

would people rather have an 8.0 unpressed or an 8.0 pressed?

[mattn792]

1 minute ago, kav said:

would people rather have an 8.0 unpressed or an 8.0 pressed?

Unpressed, because I might be able to have it pressed to a 9.0...  

Edited July 21, 2019 by mattn792
F auto correct

[kav]

Just now, mattn792 said:

Unpressed, because I might be able to have it pressed to a 9.0...  

[Logan510]

Just now, kav said:

would people rather have an 8.0 unpressed or an 8.0 pressed?

That depends on who's buying the book.

If it's for my collection I want the nicer looking copy, it doesn't matter to me if the nicer looking copy has been pressed.

It's also important to remember that all pressing isn't equal.

[kav]

2 minutes ago, Logan510 said:

It's also important to remember that all pressing isn't equal.

x 1000

[lizards2]

1 hour ago, kav said:

1 hour ago, Logan510 said:

It's also important to remember that all pressing isn't equal.

x 1000

Racist.

[kav]

Just now, lizards2 said:

Racist.

dang

[lizards2]

1 minute ago, kav said:

2 minutes ago, lizards2 said:

Racist.

dang

not you, him.

[Logan510]

1 minute ago, lizards2 said:

not you, him.

dang

[kav]

1 minute ago, lizards2 said:

not you, him.

well but I said x 1000 so that makes me x 1000 racist I guess- 

[lizards2]

Just now, kav said:

2 minutes ago, lizards2 said:

not you, him.

well but I said x 1000 so that makes me x 1000 racist I guess- 

extra-special pervert.

[kav]

Just now, lizards2 said:

extra-special pervert.

dang

[Logan510]

Just now, kav said:

dang

x1000

[kav]

1 minute ago, Logan510 said:

x1000

[kav]

[crassus]

9 hours ago, Logan510 said:

10 hours ago, crassus said:

So if I understand this correctly, its important that the graders don't know which books are pressed, because if they did they might be obliged to acknowledge it and then some books would be known to be pressed while others wouldn't, and of course the books that are known to be pressed would sell for less than the one's that (at least) might not be pressed, and well that would be a disincentive for people to press books, since nobody would want them. Do I have that right?

There's no way to prove that. I know several people who have pressed books in their collections...I have several pressed books in my collection. I think it's more fair to say it's a big deal for some and not a big deal for others.

I agree, ultimately its not an either/or, but there is also little doubt that full and universal disclosure of pressing would curb the enthusiasm of the speculation which drives the hyper inflation that now defines the market. Its not only that part of the market you lose because of the fraction of collectors who don't want pressed books, its the loss of the speculative incentive that is created by "taking a chance" that "maybe it will" press up a notch or two. 

Pressing is obviously not the only thing that drives inflation, and many other factors have nothing to do with CGC's business practices. For example, Clink and Heritage rarely offer back cover scans for books at auction, Heritage sometimes on certain books, Clink only in the Exchange when a seller chooses to provide a back cover scan. That may be a safe bet at, say, 9.4 or higher, but frankly at 9.2 and progressively as you go lower, that back cover scan is often the difference between satisfaction and regret....and yet people still throw top dollar at books that, if they were at a Con, the first thing they would do is flip the book over and look at the back cover. That the big online venues have got us all now trained to not care about back covers is another source of inflation, and there we only have ourselves to blame...

[comicwiz]

Put another way, I was offered a book very recently that I once owned. I know at least three different people have owned that book, and it's been pressed at least 3 different times since I sold it. The person offering it to me told me it could possibly increase in grade if I had it pressed, not knowing that in 3 different attempts it still hasn't increased in grade.

Pressing has turned this hobby into a pursuit of false hope, rather than the enjoyment of nostalgia. In four years I will have been collecting for 40 years. And I should say, I didn't really consider myself as being a collector up until the point I was going door-to-door looking to buy people's collections, because I had already built a sizeable collection several years prior. At the age of 8, I discovered a GS X-Men 1 at a garage sale for 50 cents, and vividly remember running home to get the change I was short, worrying someone would snatch it up before I made it back. That single event put me on the path of seeking out old comic collections rather than making a weekly trip of buying new comics from the stands. A lot has changed over the near four decades I've been a comic collector, but comics aren't the only thing I collect. I've watched a lot of unusual activity relating to monetizing collectibles, but the cesspool this hobby has become is by far the most eye-opening.

There's a reason why Gary Moser is taking the stance that he didn't alter the cards, and did a straight resub. That he, as his predecessor Hallperin, believed was a skill honed from understanding the variable differences graders used as their criteria to award or downgrade based on the items characteristics - that was until Halperin and his supposed "skill" was exposed for the fraudulant activity it was, and was slapped with a redress settlement by the FTC which required him to compensate those who had been led to believe Halperin's coins were of a better grade than they actually were. So as part of the redress plan, Halperin was not supposed to get involved with coin grading, so he decided to get involved in comics. There is no "skill" in such duplicitous activity - it's the talk of charlatans and snakeoil salesmen, and I'd imagine if the FBI came knocking on CGC's door asking if they are playing any part in "altering" comics for a grade increase, that the narrative of keeping the two departments seperate will help disassociate themselves from the kind of "foul play" Moser, PWCC and PSA are now finding themselves embroiled in.

Regardless of the outcomes and predelictions, if the pursuit to acquiring comics has become only about squeezing it for a few dollars more using stealth alterations, and CGC continues to find new ones with each passing year that they throw up their arms in resignation and say we can't detect it 100% reliably, then I'm sad for those people because there is a world of enrichment and memories built around the nostalgia that they are missing out on. I'm sad for them because they have on the one hand mistakenly substituted it for a get rich quick scheme, and on the other, are deluded if they believe that it is beyond reproach, criticism, and quite possibly, future repercussions stemming from scandals and ongoiing investigations into other similar deceptive practices happening right now in other collectible markets.

For posterity, a screenshot from the Forbes article in case that article goes poof:

Edited July 21, 2019 by comicwiz

[RockMyAmadeus]

There is no other shoe waiting to drop when it comes to pressing. It's common knowledge, an open "secret", which the market has generally accepted. There's no fraud involved where people are concealing the fact that books are being pressed. There are pressers who advertise their services on convention floors all over the nation. Some buyers don't like it....but at this point, it's not a secret that it's happening.

What would be analogous is if trimming was being done on the same scale in comics as in cards, and CGC was missing it on that scale. And trimming materially alters the book, permanently and irrevocably, obviously.

Proper pressing doesn't materially alter the book to make it appear better than it is. It only flattens out what is already there. In other words, that tear is still there, that color break is still there, that missing piece is still missing...but that bend, dent, scratch, or wave is gone, and isn't coming back. It doesn't merely appear better....it IS better, because that damage 1. didn't alter the structure of the paper/ink/sizing, and 2. is now gone. There is a legitimate argument to be made for the underlying paper structure to be weaker in the "fixed" area, but that's not generally the case unless the fibers break, which is nearly always going to leave a mark. 

 Yes, it's restoration...but it is market acceptable restoration, and not additive or destructive restoration, and done properly, no one is going to be able to tell you with certainty whether a random book has been pressed or not. 

[RockMyAmadeus]

Grading is subjective. 

Always has been...always will be. 

Where anyone runs into trouble is in conflict of interest: grading your own items, while pretending to have had them analyzed by a disinterested third party.

It is those conflicts of interest that have to be rooted out and exposed. The issue isn't giving inflated grades...the issue is pretending those grades didn't come from you. 

Where is the outrage, after all, about the fact that graded comics consumers are routinely gouged for signatures, by creators and their representatives charging them a higher price for the exact same service...signing an item...based on where the creator thinks/demands to know the item is going? "For you, it's $5, but for YOU it's $25." Same exact service, same exact effort, different price. Actual discrimination. Where is the FTC in that...?