When will the other shoe drop with CGC and the 'crack, press, and resub' game? 3 3

[lou_fine]

5 hours ago, RockMyAmadeus said:

5 hours ago, THE_BEYONDER said:

I don’t think it’s a far reach to suggest that CGC could be caught in a conflict of interest debacle, being that they hammer books for defects that their own in-house pressing service can “fix” for a price.

You're not wrong.

Although some of us might indeed see this as not only a potential conflict of interest, but a real conflict of interest, CCG being a business entity would view this as a vertical integration strategy to help ensure success for its ownership.  

Especially when we have witnessed some of the easily fixable and hence additional revenue generating defects moved right up to the top of CGC's hit parade when it comes to their undisclosed grading standards.  Certainly a much bigger hammer being applied to these types of defects as compared to the old days, even though some of them are so near invisible and can only be seen by holding the book up to the light at a certain angle.  On the other hand, some of the obviously visible defects but not fixable ones which can be seen from even outside the dealer's booth are seemingly being hit only by a light feather in comparison, when it comes to their undisclosed grading standards.  

The introduction of the new pedigree label certainly also presents a potential conflict of interest scenario here.  I still remember the Atlantic City books and the Billy Wright books coming into the marketplace around the same time.  I personally would have much preferred an Atlantic City book over the Billy Wright books if I had the money to play in that deep end of the pool, which I sad to say do not.  Especially when you take into account how nice the Atlantic City copies for the Action 10, Action 13, Cap 1, were amongst many other select books.  Maybe it's just a coincidence, but with possible vertical integration at play here, guess which one received the official pedigree designation and which one did not.  Makes me wonder if it had anything to do with the venue which they were auctioned off at (i.e. Atlantic City on CC and Billy Wright on Heritage), along with the quantity size of the collection as opposed to the quality per se.  

I guess as collectors, we must be happy that CGC has now decided to anoint 2 truly brand new pedigrees in terms of the Murphy Anderson File Copy and Annie Gaines Ashton pedigree books.  And as luck would have it, guess which 2 just designated brand new pedigrees will now be coming fresh to market and available exclusively for you to bid on at some auction site which I have never heard of, namely Heritage itself.   I didn't bother to include the mid-grade, but rather sizeable Cookville, Eldon, and Harold Curtis collections which have been around for awhile, but I assume this would definitely encourage the owners of these books to at a minimum send them in for reholdering in the hopes of increasing their value.  At a cost to the collectors of course, which they will gladly and happily pay if they want maximum dollars for their books in the end.  

Yes indeed, what you may see as a potential conflict of interest is really nothing more than a simple good business strategy to ensure that instead of generating revenue from a item (i.e. your book) only once, CCG's vertical integration model will help to ensure they generate additional revenue as many times as possible from the exact same book through their various services which they provide to the collecting base.     

[lou_fine]

6 hours ago, GreatCaesarsGhost said:

So the pressing damaged the book by loosening another centerfold wrap, but because the wrinkles were pressed out, it ironically received the same grade.

I talked to Matt Nelson about this, and he said he wasn’t the one who pressed it; it came back to CGC cracked out and already pressed by someone else. I guess this explains the new CGC number. 

Clark;

Sorry to hear about the pressing damage on the book, but nevertheless, you can never ever go wrong with having a Cap 3 book in your keeper collection.  Needless to say though, your copy is definitely one that I would absolutely love to have in my personal collection if my pockets were deep enough, as it looks absolutely gorgeous relative to its assigned grade.    

Based upon the 2-year time frame which you had mentioned that the book was initially sold and then eventually brought by you, Matt would be correct in saying that he personally did not pressed the book as he had already moved over to the CGC grading side of the business by then.  It should be noted though that "already pressed by someone else" certainly does not exclude the fact that it might have been pressed by the boys down the hall from them.  Possibly the same situation with the CGC 7.0 graded copy of Detective 80 which was part of the same submission and hence graded on the same day and which also had 2 center wraps detached.  

Especially since there had been quite a few stories on the boards here about how some books were inadvertently being damaged upon pressing after Matt had left that side of the business.  Some conspiracy theorists here have even gone so far as to say that CGC was aware of this problem and as a result, had discounted the resulting damage to some extent and given it a bit of a pass when it came to grading since they knew by the tell tale damage that the work had been done by the boys down the hall.  Since I do not send books in for potential enhancement and subsequent grading, I do not know if there is any truth to these rumours or not. 

I would most certainly hope not though.  

Edited July 21, 2019 by lou_fine

[kav]

Is there some loss in value on the cap book since it is the exact same grade?  

[GreatCaesarsGhost]

1 hour ago, lou_fine said:

Some conspiracy theorists here have even gone so far as to say that CGC was aware of this problem and as a result, had discounted the resulting damage to some extent and given it a bit of a pass when it came to grading since they knew by the tell tale damage that the work had been done by the boys down the hall. 

I don’t even wanna think about that

[GreatCaesarsGhost]

1 hour ago, kav said:

Is there some loss in value on the cap book since it is the exact same grade?  

That will be judged by the market, eventually. A 6.5 is a 6.5 in one sense. In another, a book that had off white pages and a detached centerfold morphed into a C-OW with 2 detached centerfolds. It offends me personally, but that’s just me. 

[kav]

1 minute ago, GreatCaesarsGhost said:

That will be judged by the market, eventually. A 6.5 is a 6.5 in one sense. In another, a book that had off white pages and a detached centerfold morphed into a C-OW with 2 detached centerfolds. It offends me personally, but that’s just me. 

thx that makes sense.

[RockMyAmadeus]

4 hours ago, lou_fine said:

Although some of us might indeed see this as not only a potential conflict of interest, but a real conflict of interest, CCG being a business entity would view this as a vertical integration strategy to help ensure success for its ownership.  

Especially when we have witnessed some of the easily fixable and hence additional revenue generating defects moved right up to the top of CGC's hit parade when it comes to their undisclosed grading standards.  Certainly a much bigger hammer being applied to these types of defects as compared to the old days, even though some of them are so near invisible and can only be seen by holding the book up to the light at a certain angle.  On the other hand, some of the obviously visible defects but not fixable ones which can be seen from even outside the dealer's booth are seemingly being hit only by a light feather in comparison, when it comes to their undisclosed grading standards.  

The introduction of the new pedigree label certainly also presents a potential conflict of interest scenario here.  I still remember the Atlantic City books and the Billy Wright books coming into the marketplace around the same time.  I personally would have much preferred an Atlantic City book over the Billy Wright books if I had the money to play in that deep end of the pool, which I sad to say do not.  Especially when you take into account how nice the Atlantic City copies for the Action 10, Action 13, Cap 1, were amongst many other select books.  Maybe it's just a coincidence, but with possible vertical integration at play here, guess which one received the official pedigree designation and which one did not.  Makes me wonder if it had anything to do with the venue which they were auctioned off at (i.e. Atlantic City on CC and Billy Wright on Heritage), along with the quantity size of the collection as opposed to the quality per se.  

I guess as collectors, we must be happy that CGC has now decided to anoint 2 truly brand new pedigrees in terms of the Murphy Anderson File Copy and Annie Gaines Ashton pedigree books.  And as luck would have it, guess which 2 just designated brand new pedigrees will now be coming fresh to market and available exclusively for you to bid on at some auction site which I have never heard of, namely Heritage itself.   I didn't bother to include the mid-grade, but rather sizeable Cookville, Eldon, and Harold Curtis collections which have been around for awhile, but I assume this would definitely encourage the owners of these books to at a minimum send them in for reholdering in the hopes of increasing their value.  At a cost to the collectors of course, which they will gladly and happily pay if they want maximum dollars for their books in the end.  

Yes indeed, what you may see as a potential conflict of interest is really nothing more than a simple good business strategy to ensure that instead of generating revenue from a item (i.e. your book) only once, CCG's vertical integration model will help to ensure they generate additional revenue as many times as possible from the exact same book through their various services which they provide to the collecting base.     

I appreciate your perspective on this, LF. It's nice to agree, and it's nice to see things through other people's eyes when and if you don't. Thanks for putting it out there.

I also appreciate the folks who share my interest in the high value stuff, even if we can't afford it. I bought a 2.5-3.0....2.75?...copy of Batman #12 at SDCC on Friday. It was the only purchase of substance I made. I'm thrilled to have it.

[Randall Dowling]

I really dislike chiming in on threads like this but it feels like there’s a couple of critical concerns that are being missed.

1.  Contrary to what everyone that presses books will espouse, the entire market does not accept pressing as a harmless intervention that magically improves every book without consequences. In fact, there are many cases in which it looks like continuous vertical color-breaking creasing along the spine may be just one of the many hazards of pressing.  But CGC doesn’t downgrade for this.  This can happen in many other ways outside of pressing but it’s still as much of a concern as stress on staples, shrinkage, and all the other signs that have been identified as consequences of pressing.  It’s something I didn’t even notice until a friend pointed it out to me.

2.  The real concern for the long term health of any and all collectible market is doubt.  Doubt that the item in question is legitimate creates an environment of risk that is to the greater collecting public, undesirable.  I’ve been collecting for over 40 years now and remember when all restoration was considered “beneficial” and unnecessary to disclose.  The consequence was that for the last 30 years, collectors have been finding out the hard way that their prized copy was altered and less valuable than believed.  Essentially, they were tricked and left feeling disenchanted and bitter as a consequence.  The primary value of the introduction of CGC grading was to remove doubt.  Doubt of grade, doubt of restoration, doubt of undisclosed alterations.  And yet, increasingly, this game of allowing certain alterations but not others, not disclosing grading standards, and encouraging resubmittal, has only institutionalized doubt into all books that have been graded by CGC.  I personally, would rather purchase an ungraded book than one graded by CGC and would pay more for the ungraded copy.  Because right now, as crazy as it sounds, it’s probably less likely to have been messed with.  I get why CGC does this.  It’s all money and more grading fees.  Why get paid once to grade a book when you can get paid over and over and over again?  I consider it an obvious conflict of interest.

3.  I keep reading people post analogies between pressing and the way that books were reportedly stored by Edgar Church.  Please stop.  There is absolutely no similarity whatsoever and I’m pretty sure the people that post that know it.  There was neither a humidity bath nor intense heat introduced to alter the structure of those books.  I get how associating pressing with the most prestigious pedigree in comic collecting makes pressing sound more legitimate.  But it really is a disingenuous analogy.

Many people are fine with the current environment of non-stop CPR (usually those that are profiting from it).  But others aren’t.  That’s fine but it should be discussed accordingly. 

And to RMA, I for one have always appreciated your openness and honesty in your posts and disclosure.  Even if I rarely agree with you.

[RockMyAmadeus]

5 minutes ago, Randall Dowling said:

1.  Contrary to what everyone that presses books will espouse, the entire market does not accept pressing as a harmless intervention that magically improves every book without consequences.

I don't espouse that.

And I'm not the only one.

Quote

In fact, there are many cases in which it looks like continuous vertical color-breaking creasing along the spine may be just one of the many hazards of pressing.  But CGC doesn’t downgrade for this.  This can happen in many other ways outside of pressing but it’s still as much of a concern as stress on staples, shrinkage, and all the other signs that have been identified as consequences of pressing.  It’s something I didn’t even notice until a friend pointed it out to me.

Do you have an example of this to demonstrate what you're referring to? If irreparable damage is being done as a result of pressing, people should be made aware of it.

Quote

3.  I keep reading people post analogies between pressing and the way that books were reportedly stored by Edgar Church.  Please stop.  There is absolutely no similarity whatsoever and I’m pretty sure the people that post that know it.

I disagree with you completely, have explained why, and I certainly don't agree that I "know it." There is, in fact, similarity, and not an insignificant amount, either. 

Quote

There was neither a humidity bath nor intense heat introduced to alter the structure of those books.  

I think your view of pressing is inaccurate, or incomplete. I don't use a "humidity bath", nor do I use "intense heat." I use the very minimum that is necessary to achieve the results desired. That people do things in other ways is true...but not everyone does things in those ways. For example, I can't think of anything more frightening than leaving a book with iron-based metallic staples in a "humidity chamber" for any length of time. I would never do such a thing, because it is an improper paper conservation method. 

Quote

I get how associating pressing with the most prestigious pedigree in comic collecting makes pressing sound more legitimate.  But it really is a disingenuous analogy.

My goal is not to make pressing "sound more legitimate." My goal is to use an illustration to demonstrate the point I am trying to make, and it is an illustration that many people in comics are familiar with and understand. As such, it's not only not disingenuous, it's relevant and useful. 

Your comment here is quite cynical. There is no "ulterior motive" involved on my part. What you see is what you get. 

Quote

And to RMA, I for one have always appreciated your openness and honesty in your posts and disclosure.  Even if I rarely agree with you.

Thanks. I think.

Edited July 22, 2019 by RockMyAmadeus

[oakman29]

23 hours ago, kav said:

would people rather have an 8.0 unpressed or an 8.0 pressed?

Un pressed. 

[kav]

1 minute ago, oakman29 said:

Un pressed. 

But you could get it pressed!!! 

[oakman29]

3 minutes ago, kav said:

But you could get it pressed!!! 

No thanks. I like the hunt of finding a true high grade survivor, instead of manufacturing one.

[kav]

9 minutes ago, oakman29 said:

No thanks. I like the hunt of finding a true high grade survivor, instead of manufacturing one.

BOOM!

[kav]

9 minutes ago, oakman29 said:

No thanks. I like the hunt of finding a true high grade survivor, instead of manufacturing one.

-but people say pressing isnt restoration!  

[oakman29]

1 minute ago, kav said:

-but people say pressing isnt restoration!  

Well if they are trying to bring a lesser copy to look new again, its restoration. 

 

[kav]

1 minute ago, oakman29 said:

Well if they are trying to bring a lesser copy to look new again, its restoration. 

 

[Logan510]

15 minutes ago, oakman29 said:

No thanks. I like the hunt of finding a true high grade survivor, instead of manufacturing one.

There are a lot of national dealers who sell raw comics that are already pressed 

[James J Johnson]

33 minutes ago, Randall Dowling said:

I really dislike chiming in on threads like this but it feels like there’s a couple of critical concerns that are being missed.

In fact, there are many cases in which it looks like continuous vertical color-breaking creasing along the spine may be just one of the many hazards of pressing.  

I've seen what certainly appear to be potential hazards of pressing manifested on pressed books, but I must say, the creation of vertical color-breaking creases along the spine or anywhere else has never been one of them.

If Joey Post is in the house, perhaps he can weigh in on this.

[oakman29]

Just now, Logan510 said:

There are a lot of national dealers who sell raw comics that are already pressed 

I'm sure there are. 

[James J Johnson]

1 minute ago, Logan510 said:

There are a lot of national dealers who sell raw comics that are already pressed 

Aren't there dozens of heat presses that sell on ebay each and every week? They used to list them showing T-shirts being pressed. Now they list them with comics pictured in the listings and language like, "Improve your comics".