When will the other shoe drop with CGC and the 'crack, press, and resub' game? 3 3

[Prince Namor]

13 minutes ago, James J Johnson said:

I was being facetious. ComicWiz was maintaining that Sue never pressed books. Ever. Which we all know to be false. Pressing was an option right on the Restoration Lab certificates.

No I was making fun of them... the idea that the hobby was so innocent before CGC ruined it is humorous to me.

[VintageComics]

Let's look at the flip side of the discussion from a practical standpoint.

Let's suppose that most people agreed on disclosure and it became 'the norm' and everyone that slabbed a book checked a 'pressed' box on the CGC submission form or put a sticker that said 'pressed' on their raw books that were pressed.

But CGC still can't detect it reliably. And Joe Blow can't either.

So you still have people who don't disclose it and now you have pressed books slipping into unpressed holders.

Is that preferred to just assuming all books are pressed unless someone comes out and states they are actually unpressed?

It's a very tough situation to please everyone with.

[VintageComics]

8 minutes ago, Randall Dowling said:

15 minutes ago, VintageComics said:

I dropped an ultra high grade Avengers #4 IN A SCANNER once.

That’s not okay.  You just dropped points in my book, sir!

Hey, does intent matter at all? I didn't do it on purpose!

[kav]

I hope all the pressed books dont begin to crumble in 50 years.  

[comicwiz]

15 minutes ago, kav said:

The whole 'disclosure' argument is a non starter.  Sure the presser can disclose it to the buyer but thats where it ends.  It can be resold 10 times after that with no 'disclosure'.  I see the disclosure argument is a self justifying one.  CGC can disclose books pressed by CCS but whats the point?  Plenty of other undetected pressed books would still be slabbed and they might command a premium and CGC would be shooting itself in the foot.  I dont wanna hear about disclosure no more.

We need to rethink this position. In toy grading, particularly higher end pieces, you simply would NEVER have any chance of selling the piece publicly without people asking for the COA. This means the encased toy has a label showing the grade, and there is also a 8x11 letter/COA.

That level of demanding authenticity, disclosure and provenance can easily carry over to comics. These days you can do it with QR codes, but I'd prefer a document that must be sold along with the comic. Spending 4, 5, 6 or even 7 figures on a book without one is insanity. And the counterargument to CGC being at a disadvantage - knowing what CCS did to the comic inside the slab, and producing a document detailing exactly what was done puts them in an automatic advantage over anyone else that doesn't fess up that information.

This, on the heels of CGC partnering with eBay, and offering grades from photos - there are definitely ways to look at proactive disclosure as being a necessity in online trading/selling environments, and which can make them look a lot smarter than trying to grade from photos for a fiver.

You want to sell that book for a few hundred or a few grand, provide the disclosure or you can't sell it.

Edited July 25, 2019 by comicwiz

[James J Johnson]

2 minutes ago, comicwiz said:

Defects be damned, there's money to be made.

Yes. That's the real world nature and goal of business. We all pay many of the same bills, and they're due each and every month.

Let's harken back to pre-CGC days. Most dealers that I knew were in hock up to their necks. Money borrowed to buy collections that sat on shelves awaiting buyers. Used to go to shows and there were the same dealers with the same inventory on their walls. Used to be able to identify the dealer by the books! Ed Jaster and his Cap 1 with the writing crisscrossing the title and things like that. PCE and their split cover Marvel 1. The inventory would sit and sit and sit. Like the pyramids. Then, suddenly something changed. CGC. The books started to actually sell! The dealers actually started to make a dent in their loans! The prices took off, the hobby started to soar. Thank you, CGC.

[James J Johnson]

30 minutes ago, comicwiz said:

your self-awareness is commendable.

That's the first time you've been on point from start to finish.

Are you not similarly self-aware?

Edited July 25, 2019 by James J Johnson

[kav]

5 minutes ago, comicwiz said:

We need to rethink this position. In toy grading, particularly higher end pieces, you simply would NEVER have any chance of selling the piece publicly without people asking for the COA. This means the encased toy has a label showing the grade, and there is also a 8x11 letter/COA.

That level of demanding authenticity, disclosure and provenance can easily carry over to comics. These days you can do it with QR codes, but I'd prefer a document that must be sold along with the comic. Spending 4, 5, 6 or even 7 figures on a book without one is insanity. And the counterargument to CGC being at a disadvantage - knowing what CCS did to the comic inside the slab, and producing a document detailing exactly what was done puts them in an automatic advantage over anyone else that doesn't fess up that information.

This, on the heels of CGC partnering with eBay, and offering grades from photos - there are definitely ways to look at proactive disclosure as being a necessity in online trading/selling environments, and which can make them look a lot smarter than trying to grade from photos for a fiver.

You want to sell that book for a few hundred or a few grand, provide the disclosure or you can't sell it.

In the comic and OA realm, a COA means "this item is absolutely 100% FAKE"

[comicwiz]

Just now, kav said:

In the comic and OA realm, a COA means "this item is absolutely 100% FAKE"

It always depends on the reputations of the people signing it.

[kav]

Just now, comicwiz said:

It always depends on the reputations of the people signing it.

I mean there's PSA DNA - I dont know of any legit authorization service-maybe its different in the toy realm.

[Prince Namor]

8 minutes ago, comicwiz said:

All of this still goes on. It's a false equivalence because no one (at least back in the days you are referring to) self-appointed themselves as an impartial grading authority.

Sure they did. There was no internet or eBay and really... you were at the mercy of a handful of people you bought from and you had to go by their grade. After all, Conan #4 was rare! You might not see another one!

8 minutes ago, comicwiz said:

Worst of all, the self-appointed grader was supposed to protect us from the Dupchaks, but instead they put a price on their "impartiality" and now we have everyone with a press in their basement deciding we aren't capable to think for ourselves, and enjoy a comic with defects. Defects be damned, there's money to be made.

Yeah, they've made their mistakes... what business without a product history doesn't?

In many ways, who even knows where this hobby would be without CGC coming along. 

[kav]

Most COAs I see on ebay were printed up and signed by the seller-

[James J Johnson]

Just now, Chuck Gower said:

Sure they did. There was no internet or eBay and really... you were at the mercy of a handful of people you bought from and you had to go by their grade. After all, Conan #4 was rare! You might not see another one!

Yeah, they've made their mistakes... what business without a product history doesn't?

In many ways, who even knows where this hobby would be without CGC coming along. 

It would be where it was. Dealers buried in hock with the same inventory sitting on their shelves for years.

[James J Johnson]

1 minute ago, kav said:

Most COAs I see on ebay were printed up and signed by the seller-

X1000

[comicwiz]

4 minutes ago, James J Johnson said:

Yes. That's the real world nature and goal of business. We all pay many of the same bills, and they're due each and every month.

Let's harken back to pre-CGC days. Most dealers that I knew were in hock up to their necks. Money borrowed to buy collections that sat on shelves awaiting buyers. Used to go to shows and there were the same dealers with the same inventory on their walls. Used to be able to identify the dealer by the books! Ed Jaster and his Cap 1 with the writing crisscrossing the title and things like that. PCE and their split cover Marvel 1. The inventory would sit and sit and sit. Like the pyramids. Then, suddenly something changed. CGC. The books started to actually sell! The dealers actually started to make a dent in their loans! The prices took off, the hobby started to soar. Thank you, CGC.

I've sold more raw than graded by a fair margin, I'd imagine I'm not alone. I'd even say more raw have sold on these boards than graded over the near 20 years I've been here. It's cyclical, and the one thing that I imagine will happen is books need to be purchased raw, and a percentage will be bought with an eye and intent for altering. You can't have the kind of growth you talk about without there being the dealers shaking out new collections and raw books to be absorbed so the thanks really go to the ones who grade accurately, price fairly, and they're the ones keeping the hobby wheels turning.

[Prince Namor]

1 minute ago, James J Johnson said:

It would be where it was. Dealers buried in hock with the same inventory sitting on their shelves for years.

Yep. It wouldn't be much of a hobby left.

[comicwiz]

7 minutes ago, kav said:

I mean there's PSA DNA - I dont know of any legit authorization service-maybe its different in the toy realm.

CIB does the authenticating of genuine product for SW toys. On higher value pieces, they insert the document inside the tamper evident case. It doesn't get any better than CIB when it comes to authenticating toys.

[JWKyle]

42 minutes ago, VintageComics said:

The problem that exists with CGC notating which books were pressed by CCS and which were not is that it can't be done consistently with books that are not pressed by CCS.

 

That's why I stated only books pressed by CCS would be noted. They would know 100% for sure the book went through the process. I was not happy when CGC brought CCS into the fold. Grading books from CCS is basically grading their own work. They state that none of this info is know by the graders but they are so closed lip on certain aspects of the process how can you be sure. If the FBI were to come into our hobby hopefully it would be to split the "pressing" departments on both grading companies into a separate entity. In-house work is a conflict of interest period. 

Keep in mind I have no problem with a pressed book. As a matter of fact if I had a choice between 2 books and both had cuts and wraps alike and the unpressed copy was a weak 9.8 and a pressed copy was a strong 9.8 I would take the pressed copy 10 out of 10 times. 

[kav]

4 minutes ago, comicwiz said:

CIB does the authenticating of genuine product for SW toys. On higher value pieces, they insert the document inside the tamper evident case. It doesn't get any better than CIB when it comes to authenticating toys.

I'm not sure how you could get a COA for pressing though.  

[kav]

1 minute ago, JWKyle said:

That's why I stated only books pressed by CCS would be noted.

A notation saying this book was definitely pressed would maybe lower the market value.