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When will the other shoe drop with CGC and the 'crack, press, and resub' game?
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873 posts in this topic

On 7/20/2019 at 12:20 AM, GreatCaesarsGhost said:

Here’s the link to the Forbes article on Halperin. . . 

 

https://www.forbes.com/forbes/2004/1227/156.html

Holy Cow !!!

So the higher echelons of Heritage aka Halperin is enmeshed in this!

look for this thread to be killed by the mods. This subject is wayee too toxic. 

And what about cgc. Are cgc owners involved in Heritage?

sigh ....

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The source for the following matrix is @MasterChief - I wanted to provide visual references for all these MH books for posterity (and because of the historical tendency for this type of information to disappear). The context and timeframe for this grouping of 10 Mile High (Edgar Church) pedigrees all first appeared for sale at Heritage in Oct 2002, and reappeared for sale July 2003 (with the exception of the Captain Midnight, which reappeared Oct 2003). The average grade improvement was close to 3 grade point increase, with the highest being the Boy #17 that increased by 7 grade points (and a 10 point grade increase if you count the 9.0 grade it eventually achieved as seen here).

matrix.jpg.1dbd50e315ba6858b3214736e691b0aa.jpg

buz-sawyer1-9.0.thumb.jpg.cefe562ece1c24bfeef2ac0c8bd3b142.jpg

buz-sawyer1-9.6.thumb.jpg.9c868b4dbbe636435114b6d1d721157d.jpg

boy17-40.thumb.jpg.de6b54190aca9aa5adaf5a771775b818.jpg

boy17-75.thumb.jpg.97d553f0c3942e2b0a2fe18508b26c56.jpg

** NOTE: the Boy 17 was further upgraded to a 9.0 - see @lou_fine post here to see the 9.0

magic-comics-9.0.thumb.jpg.351d74cc47b86ba0e35d50546a809e7f.jpg

magic-comics-9.6.thumb.jpg.cdefa433ea4230eff9926ad6b09b36bf.jpg

magic-comics-41-8.0.thumb.jpg.8487f48fe11d37f69175f68882e327d7.jpg

magic-comics-41-9.6.thumb.jpg.1af58a4cc83282b3247bfbc7f06e02c6.jpg

magic-comics-42-9.2.thumb.jpg.fa42934c2f336efe513aec987e8d00d1.jpg

magic-comics-42-9.4.thumb.jpg.438e92d3f2c1606448a8c272ea1b2243.jpg

pop-comics-85.thumb.jpg.40c784da5e4b368d7544a3c2ce749960.jpgpop-comics-96.thumb.jpg.24f1cda28981e33bfbd171e1798bd153.jpg

pop-comics-74-9.0.thumb.jpg.b09e6cb3d05c353cc3f7c1ac899d0f54.jpg

pop-comics-74-9.6.thumb.jpg.0f80c4dc2b2c0bc8f148dac381659d07.jpg

pop-comics-82-9.4.thumb.jpg.031f984bdc62213dba9d166bfed52297.jpg

pop-comics-82-9.6.thumb.jpg.6993340623f96df3551bd981e9acc6bb.jpg

pop-comics-83-9.4.thumb.jpg.fcb649f71c2d172fba56507ba8135c3d.jpg

pop-comics-83-9.6.thumb.jpg.68c081b3468baed1a12d82d47fee9cd8.jpg

cap-mid-9.2.thumb.jpg.8ff7e2dda8023c7fb1482610196dcb2e.jpg

captain-midnight-94.thumb.jpg.7841ec895a13613f01df0ae42b79b88d.jpg

 

Edited by comicwiz
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On 9/8/2019 at 8:53 AM, Mr bla bla said:
On 7/19/2019 at 3:20 PM, GreatCaesarsGhost said:

Here’s the link to the Forbes article on Halperin. . . 

 

https://www.forbes.com/forbes/2004/1227/156.html

Holy Cow !!!

So the higher echelons of Heritage aka Halperin is enmeshed in this!

look for this thread to be killed by the mods. This subject is wayee too toxic. 

And what about cgc. Are cgc owners involved in Heritage?

sigh ....

Don't see why it would be, especailly since it has already been discussed many times before on the boards here.  :gossip:

From a strict business point of view, a corporation always has a much better chance of success if they can implement vertical integration by either acquiring or setting up compnaies in the same production vertical.  Hence, it would only make sense from a business point of view if they own not only a comic book grading company, but also one that restores or "preps" the books up prior to the grading process, and then follow this up by having partial ownership or whatever in one of the major auction houses that sells this so-called "finished" product.  Don't they also own or have some interest in some sort of gallery post Heritage that pushes a few of these higher end items further down the line?  Now, take this same concept and spread it across some of the other collectibles fields out there because CCG is so much more than just about the relatively small comic book marketplace which appears to be just the last one which they moved into.  :devil:

The only real concern which I have here is that in the type of marketplace which we are in, trust and integrity is of paramount importance.  As a result, as many board members have talked about before, potential and possibly even real conflicts of interest is of extreme importance here.  Especially when internal operational decisions made by one subsidary can greatly affect the business interest of another subsidary.  hm

 

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On 9/9/2019 at 7:23 AM, comicwiz said:

The source for the following matrix is @MasterChief - I wanted to provide visual references for all these MH books for posterity (and because of the historical tendency for this type of information to disappear). The context and timeframe for this grouping of 10 Mile High (Edgar Church) pedigrees all first appeared for sale at Heritage in Oct 2002, and reappeared for sale July 2003 (with the exception of the Captain Midnight, which reappeared Oct 2003). The average grade improvement was close to 3 grade point increase, with the highest being the Boy #17 that increased by 7 grade points (and a 10 point grade increase if you count the 9.0 grade it eventually achieved as seen here).

matrix.jpg.1dbd50e315ba6858b3214736e691b0aa.jpg

 

** NOTE: the Boy 17 was further upgraded to a 9.0 - see @lou_fine post here to see the 9.0

 

pop-comics-85.thumb.jpg.40c784da5e4b368d7544a3c2ce749960.jpgpop-comics-96.thumb.jpg.24f1cda28981e33bfbd171e1798bd153.jpg

 

 

 

So, from what I am seeing here, I assume it must be that big ding at the bottom left of the spine, along with possibly some invisible spine ticks that can't be seen from a scan, that kept this book out from hitting the CGC 9.6 graded level on the first go round here.  That appears to be a pretty significant hit from what I am seeing here.  hm

Of course, that from the point of view of being a long term collector from long before CGC was even a glint in anybody's eyes, and simply going for the overall visual appearance and feel of a book, as opposed to the tiny technical details that CGC places most of their focus on.  Ok, the ding at the bottom would definitely bother me in the old days, but not so much the tiny near invisible ticks that can only be seen when the book is held in hand and pointed at just the exact correct angle to the light.  (shrug)

Especially not if they are they are either a Church copy or a Poughkeepsie File Copy from way back in the late 30's or early 40's and looking and feeling just as fresh as a newsstand comic off the shelves of your LCS last week.  :luhv:  :takeit:

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On 7/19/2019 at 4:51 PM, comicwiz said:

"If you have something that's 100 years old, and it looks like it's 100 years old, that's one thing. But if it looks like it's brand new, that's something else," said Anthony Nex, a vintage collector in Southern California. "That's impressive. When you alter a card, you're deceiving someone to make it look like it was cared for better than it was. The rabid memorabilia market created a strong incentive for card doctors, who could see large profit margins by illicitly altering a card to boost its grade then reselling it."

Read more: Baseball card collectors suspect rampant fraud in their hobby

https://www.oregonlive.com/business/2019/07/baseball-card-collectors-suspected-rampant-fraud-in-their-hobby.html?fbclid=IwAR3R488NNulZW1t6fs9jiRpo1jB8fbdwKaOrf3bOeRp1xpUCwsFLdRAXwH0

 

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On 9/9/2019 at 11:34 AM, lou_fine said:

Don't see why it would be, especailly since it has already been discussed many times before on the boards here.  :gossip:

From a strict business point of view, a corporation always has a much better chance of success if they can implement vertical integration by either acquiring or setting up compnaies in the same production vertical.  Hence, it would only make sense from a business point of view if they own not only a comic book grading company, but also one that restores or "preps" the books up prior to the grading process, and then follow this up by having partial ownership or whatever in one of the major auction houses that sells this so-called "finished" product.  Don't they also own or have some interest in some sort of gallery post Heritage that pushes a few of these higher end items further down the line?  Now, take this same concept and spread it across some of the other collectibles fields out there because CCG is so much more than just about the relatively small comic book marketplace which appears to be just the last one which they moved into.  :devil:

The only real concern which I have here is that in the type of marketplace which we are in, trust and integrity is of paramount importance.  As a result, as many board members have talked about before, potential and possibly even real conflicts of interest is of extreme importance here.  Especially when internal operational decisions made by one subsidary can greatly affect the business interest of another subsidary.  hm

 

It puts the comic in the press or it gets the hose again.

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3 hours ago, Aweandlorder said:

 

Funny, but absolutely true. The people that have been knowingly selling trimmed cards that they sold before when they weren't trimmed actually said, <"Pictures aren't evidence"> :roflmao:

The big trimmer that he's referring to is Gary Moser. He's named in several articles as the buyer of cards that he later submitted that were trimmed and bleached after he bought them, then submitted again in their new form.. But he's not going to jail anytime soon, or being sued. Gary has been operating in the card hobby with the blessings of most who he makes money for, for 20 years or more. He's just one. There's actually been about a dozen key mechanics submitting chemically treated, trimmed, and forged signature cards right back to the same grading services, the same dealers where the unaltered cards were bought.

I had the number at 5 to 7 different ones, distinguishable by their work. An online article names 12 of them, more than I suspected.

 

Edited by James J Johnson
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I wonder how long it'll take for the card scandal to really hit card (and stock) prices hard. If it ever will. May never find out exactly how many cards are affected. I also wonder if the virus will spread to my other hobbies...

Edited by Silver Ager
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