When will the other shoe drop with CGC and the 'crack, press, and resub' game? 3 3

[GreatCaesarsGhost]

I’ve sort of stayed out of this discussion, but here we go. Maybe a year ago I bought a book that became the subject of intense board discussion because, unbeknownst to me at the time of purchase, it was a crack, press and resubmit. Turns out someone on the boards recognized it has having sold for a much higher price a year before I bought it. When I bought the book, I got it for a more reasonable price. Between the difference in hammer price and their regrading fee, I think the “crack, press, resubmit” guy lost $30k. So It was a huge fail for someone, and it upset me greatly, as the unwitting buyer. 

The first 2 images are of how it sold 2 years ago:

The next 2 images show the book when I bought it a year later:

So the pressing damaged the book by loosening another centerfold wrap, but because the wrinkles were pressed out, it ironically received the same grade.

I talked to Matt Nelson about this, and he said he wasn’t the one who pressed it; it came back to CGC cracked out and already pressed by someone else. I guess this explains the new CGC number. 

And oh by the way, a second grading resulted in a lower PQ rating. 

Altogether, a very unsatisfactory result for someone.

so, I have respect for Vintage_roy and all the rest who are proponents of pressing, but here is a real live example of a book being damaged by it

 

Edited July 21, 2019 by GreatCaesarsGhost

[RockMyAmadeus]

2 minutes ago, THE_BEYONDER said:

It’s grade manipulation.  Let’s call it what it is. 

That's where I draw the line. I'm not going to call it that, because I don't believe it is that. If wiping off a piece of snot, or dislodging a dried up piece of food that had lodged on the book 47 years ago when someone was eating and spoke with their mouth full while the book was in their hands is "grade manipulation", then anything and everything is "grade manipulation." Putting a book in a bag/board/mylar exerts a small amount of pressure - grade manipulation. Bending back a bent corner out of the box - grade manipulation. Carefully removing a piece of tape that got stuck to the cover because you weren't as careful as you ought to have been taking it out of the bag and board - grade manipulation.

"But what you did is much more involved than any of those things!" Right. No question about it. But I didn't alter the actual book in any way. I just took OFF what was sitting ON TOP of the surface of the paper. Restoration? You bet. Grade "manipulation"? No.

I've been more transparent about the process than most people, with their "secret" methods, and their "oooo, I can't reveal my super-secret recipes" spy games nonsense. I'd like to think that earns me a little benefit of the doubt.

[bc]

9 minutes ago, GreatCaesarsGhost said:

I’ve sort of stayed out of this discussion, but here we go. Maybe a year ago I bought a book that became the subject of intense board discussion because, unbeknownst to me at the time of purchase, it was a crack, press and resubmit. Turns out someone on the boards recognized it has having sold for a much higher price a year before I bought it. When I bought the book, I got it for a more reasonable price. Between the difference in hammer price and their regrading fee, I think the “crack, press, resubmit” guy lost $30k. So It was a huge fail for someone, and it upset me greatly, as the unwitting buyer. 

The first 2 images are of how it sold 2 years ago:

The next 2 images show the book when I bought it a year later:

So the CPR caused it to go from just "Centerfold detached" to "2 center wraps detached"?

Still a gorgeous copy!

[THE_BEYONDER]

9 minutes ago, RockMyAmadeus said:

That's where I draw the line. I'm not going to call it that, because I don't believe it is that. If wiping off a piece of snot, or dislodging a dried up piece of food that had lodged on the book 47 years ago when someone was eating and spoke with their mouth full while the book was in their hands is "grade manipulation", then anything and everything is "grade manipulation." Putting a book in a bag/board/mylar exerts a small amount of pressure - grade manipulation. Bending back a bent corner out of the box - grade manipulation. Carefully removing a piece of tape that got stuck to the cover because you weren't as careful as you ought to have been taking it out of the bag and board - grade manipulation.

"But what you did is much more involved than any of those things!" Right. No question about it. But I didn't alter the actual book in any way. I just took OFF what was sitting ON TOP of the surface of the paper. Restoration? You bet. Grade "manipulation"? No.

I've been more transparent about the process than most people, with their "secret" methods, and their "oooo, I can't reveal my super-secret recipes" spy games nonsense. I'd like to think that earns me a little benefit of the doubt.

Did the book grade higher after you doctored it?  If it did, then your work manipulated the grade.  The residue is part of the books history that you tried to erase.  

 

You keep trying to make the distinction that you didn’t “alter the book” .  

Who cares?  It’s altering the grade that matters.

Edited July 21, 2019 by THE_BEYONDER

[GreatCaesarsGhost]

3 minutes ago, bc said:

So the CPR caused it to go from just "Centerfold detached" to "2 center wraps detached"?

Still a gorgeous copy!

Yes, that’s exactly what happened.

(and thanks)

[RockMyAmadeus]

32 minutes ago, THE_BEYONDER said:

It’s grade manipulation.  Let’s call it what it is. 

And for the record, and I've been meaning to reply since you brought it up a couple weeks ago: I completely and wholeheartedly agree with you that it's a wondrous thing for a book to have survived decades in absolutely perfect condition, without anyone fiddling with it in any way. But...that's really an assumption, isn't it? Unless you're the original owner, you don't know...and really can't know...if that owner did anything to fiddle with the book him or herself, either. 

Did Edgar Church stacking his books in his closet help preserve a lot of them? Absolutely. Did it, over time, end up "naturally pressing" some of the books, especially nearer the bottom? Absolutely. Is that grade manipulation? I don't think so.

Does putting a book in a bag/board/mylar and then in a box end up applying a small, but not-insignificant amount of pressure to a book? Yes. I have long boxes that have had the same books in them since 1991-1993. Many of them exhibit the faintest shadow of the edge of the bag on the book in front of it, as well as an ultra slight indentation of the piece of tape used to close that bag. And that's just from sitting in a long box for 25+ years. 

Where I draw the line is when you start adding to, or taking away from, the book. That's where I have a problem. Then, it's not original. A bend that's been bent back, and visually disappears? I have no problem with that, whether the book was sitting on the bottom of Edgar's closets, or someone put the book under some encyclopedias for a years, or someone pressed it. It's still the same book.

Edited July 21, 2019 by RockMyAmadeus

[RockMyAmadeus]

5 minutes ago, THE_BEYONDER said:

Did the book grade higher after you doctored it?  If it did, then your work manipulated the grade.  The residue is part of the books history that you tried to erase.  

 

You keep trying to make the distinction that you didn’t “alter the book” .  

Who cares?  It’s altering the grade that matters.

Then if you ever open a bag and board and accidentally stick the tape to the cover...you should do nothing to try and remove that tape, because it is now part of the history of the book, and removing it is trying to erase that history. And if you talk over a book, and a tiny piece of spittle lands on the book, you should make no attempt to quickly wipe it away before it bleeds into the paper, because that spittle is now part of the book's history. 

I don't disagree with your principle. I disagree with where you draw the line.

 

[namisgr]

41 minutes ago, THE_BEYONDER said:

The after scan is larger, but the white space above the code is smaller . 

Looks the same to me.  

[RockMyAmadeus]

Pun not intended, I imagine...

 

[THE_BEYONDER]

8 minutes ago, RockMyAmadeus said:

Unless you're the original owner, you don't know..

But I do know, because you just posted before and after scans of the work.

[comicwiz]

One of the more interesting conditions of the FTC redress plan was that NCI/Halperin had to produce a special form of disclosure with any items it sold that was essentially telling consumers it was loose and fast with its grading. 

When I hear people talk about "acceptable" reconditioning/alterations, I don't think they realize the importance for willing buyers to know all relevant facts, and that may include industry specific understanding or knowledge, to inform their buying choices. Without these relevant facts, they might not be willing at all to enter into a deal.

So imagine a "condition report' required of all people listing CGC's comics which states this comic may have been reconditioned in a manner where imperfections such as wariness in the paper, creases, folds, and even stains, dust or ink transfer or distributor spray has been removed to create the appearance of a comic that was cared for and in better condition than it really is. Interestingly, NCI decided to fold the company rather than be under any order to disclose what it was doing. 

This may be a moot point unless any such investigation would happen with comic grading, but in a hypothetical scenario whereby an FBI investigation would root out the practices people here deem "acceptable", and as part of it's redress in turn orders CGC to do the same thing NCI was asked to do, does anyone here really believe they could continue to operate an in-house pressings/cleaning service?

I don't, and as long as this type of knowledge and information is hidden from the average consumer who might be unaware of such practices intended to create a false appearance and or inflate the grade of a comic to appear as though it is in better condition than it was previously, it is, and will always be unacceptable to me.

Edited July 21, 2019 by comicwiz

[kav]

Some day all the pressed books may begin to crumble because aw damn all that heat pressure and moisture have broken too many of the glycosidic bonds- 

Future historians will say sadly "they didnt realize-"

 

[crassus]

16 minutes ago, RockMyAmadeus said:

Then if you ever open a bag and board and accidentally stick the tape to the cover...you should do nothing to try and remove that tape, because it is now part of the history of the book, and removing it is trying to erase that history. And if you talk over a book, and a tiny piece of spittle lands on the book, you should make no attempt to quickly wipe it away before it bleeds into the paper, because that spittle is now part of the book's history. 

I don't disagree with your principle. I disagree with where you draw the line.

 

I agree completely. A book's history is constantly unfolding and it is changing all the time by natural processes, just taking a book out of a box and exposing it to light is altering the book, and the whole environment is a variable in its evolution. (Forgive me smokers, and I used to be one too) but if a book smelled of smoke because its owner smoked, and as someone super sensitive to odours, I freshen it up with no other intervention than simply prolonged exposure to clean air flow. I do count strong and foreign odours as part of the grading evaluation. And it is worth remembering that odours are also physical properties of books, like dirt. 

I understand that for every collector there is ground zero, the second that completed book left the printing process and started off "mint", if such a thing ever existed, at least in theory there was an original state, but that state began disappearing each second thereafter, and it is not clear what state along this journey is privileged as "original". 

It is interesting that these questions do not trouble to the same degree those involved in archeology and the discovery and preservation of ancient relics. While it is important to study the object first "in situ", in its original context where it was found, eventually, when it can be safely moved to another location for study or display, there is no hesitation about cleaning the dirt off the objects, there is no expectation that it is not somehow the same object just because it does not come with all the original grave dirt still coating the object. That said here is an interesting example from the documentary "Ancient Lives" by the Egyptologist John Romer. Apparently the original work of the ancient craftsman in polishing the golden death mask of Tutankhamun was so exquisite that the later attempts of museum workers to clean it up ended in damaging it and reducing its original reflectivity...its a longer documentary but here just watch the first couple of minutes...

 

[Bomber-Bob]

The Curator 57 adjustment is discouraging but at least it looks better. Remember this example of a similar grade bump, looked horrible. 

 

[kav]

[RockMyAmadeus]

I have absolutely no problem disclosing that all the books I sell have been pressed and/or dry cleaned, and have made that obvious since the day I started doing the work in 2010.

It is my opinion, having been in the comics business for 30 years as of next month, that the market does not care if a book has been pressed, if pressed properly, and dry cleaned, if done well, because both of those processes are functionally undetectable when done right. The buyer says "if I can't tell something's been done to it...and, more importantly, the experts can't tell (in a perfect world, of course, barring instances of willful "unwillingness to tell" that is the result of conflict of interest)...then that's fine with me.

Comic paper is delicate and fragile, and prone to damage easily. There is a lot more tolerance for fixing that damage in comics than there is with cards...understandably so.

Am I justifying myself because of what I do? That's a fair contention to make, but the answer, in my mind, is no...because I have no problem with buying properly pressed and cleaned books myself, at the "going rate" for such books, pressed or not. I don't like dirty books. I don't like "wrinkly, dented" books. So, if a book can have surface issues worked out, without altering the fundamental structure of the paper itself, I don't think the market has any problem with that. Don't chop it up. Don't try to replace ink that's been worn away. Don't try to replace missing pieces or marry missing pages. Don't try to fix those tears. Just smooth out what's already there, and take off whatever additional crud has accumulated over the years, and I think everything is fine.

It's much like "dipped" coins. Chemically removing a couple of microns of surface layer of the coin, without disturbing the fundamental luster of the coin, is "market acceptable." There's no attempt to conceal it, there's no attempt to hide it. 

It's not the work that people don't like...it's the cover up.

[RockMyAmadeus]

31 minutes ago, crassus said:

I agree completely. A book's history is constantly unfolding and it is changing all the time by natural processes, just taking a book out of a box and exposing it to light is altering the book, and the whole environment is a variable in its evolution. (Forgive me smokers, and I used to be one too) but if a book smelled of smoke because its owner smoked, and as someone super sensitive to odours, I freshen it up with no other intervention than simply prolonged exposure to clean air flow. I do count strong and foreign odours as part of the grading evaluation. And it is worth remembering that odours are also physical properties of books, like dirt. 

I understand that for every collector there is ground zero, the second that completed book left the printing process and started off "mint", if such a thing ever existed, at least in theory there was an original state, but that state began disappearing each second thereafter, and it is not clear what state along this journey is privileged as "original". 

It is interesting that these questions do not trouble to the same degree those involved in archeology and the discovery and preservation of ancient relics. While it is important to study the object first "in situ", in its original context where it was found, eventually, when it can be safely moved to another location for study or display, there is no hesitation about cleaning the dirt off the objects, there is no expectation that it is not somehow the same object just because it does not come with all the original grave dirt still coating the object. That said here is an interesting example from the documentary "Ancient Lives" by the Egyptologist John Romer. Apparently the original work of the ancient craftsman in polishing the golden death mask of Tutankhamun was so exquisite that the later attempts of museum workers to clean it up ended in damaging it and reducing its original reflectivity...its a longer documentary but here just watch the first couple of minutes...

 

Great post, well stated. 

I've been where that man is standing!  What a marvel, that museum is. It's Indiana Jones, come to life. I saw the Narmer palette with my own two eyes...the union of Upper and Lower Egypt, over 5,000 years ago! 

 

[James J Johnson]

1 hour ago, RockMyAmadeus said:

There is a lot more tolerance for fixing that damage in comics than there is with cards...understandably so.

In short, No. Going into exactly what is being done to and what is being created in the card hobby that finds its way into card slabs would be off-topic. Suffice it to say that being basically two dimensional, without multiple parts, and small in size, if the card mechanics tried to manipulate comics in the same way and to the same extent as is being done in cards, CGC would catch it at 100 yards.

[lou_fine]

18 hours ago, crassus said:

So if I understand this correctly, its important that the graders don't know which books are pressed, because if they did they might be obliged to acknowledge it and then some books would be known to be pressed while others wouldn't, and of course the books that are known to be pressed would sell for less than the one's that (at least) might not be pressed, and well that would be a disincentive for people to press books, since nobody would want them. Do I have that right?

I believe you are taking much too narrow of a viewpoint on this issue.  

It's all really part of a much bigger picture and you have to understand that CCG is really a business, and as such, their main objective is simply to generate as many additional revenue streams as possible in order to maximize both their top and bottom lines like any successful business would seek to do.  This is all a part of their overall business model right from the get go and all you really need to do is simply take a look at all of the disclosed and subtle undisclosed changes that have taken place in the grading game over time since CGC first opened its doors.  

[comicwiz]

3 hours ago, crassus said:

It is interesting that these questions do not trouble to the same degree those involved in archeology and the discovery and preservation of ancient relics.

Contextually, you are looking at the Abu Simbel being relocated. The reality of monetizing comic grading has absolutely nothing to do with natural processes, and it's akin to Disney planning to relocate the Egyptian pyramids to Disney World Resort. Disney's elegance in describing why the move is important in preserving the pyramids, and their deep pockets to ensure the relocation was done right would probably be enough for most to believe it was the right thing to do, but anyone with a brain would see through it purely as a way to cash in on the tourist revenue.