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If Foreign (Non-US) Distribution Price Variants were proven to have been printed first, would it matter?
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26 posts in this topic

Morning :)

If you pop over to my Australian Price Variant thread you'll see that a chap called Joseph Italiano has emerged and made the claim that first wave of Australian Price Variants were printed first - prior to the US copies - to ensure that they got on the ship in time for the long journey to OZ. A quote from his website reads as follows:

"The Australian Price Variant (APV) books were collated first, before any other editions. This was so the lag time between US editions release and Australian edition release would be reduced. As soon as these books were printed, they were shipped, while the regular US editions were yet to be completed. We are unsure how much time difference there was between the editions, but in any case, they can be identified as the first of the print run. After about a year of this practice, Alternate Worlds broke the news about APV's"

Joseph has also put forward a view that has been discussed many times down the years for pence copies, that the Australian books have a greater depth of colour when compared to US priced copies, consistent with being printed first.  In respect of pence copies, during recent email discussions with Matt Nelson of CGC, he advised me that CGC graders had found that UK Price Variants often displayed different ink saturation, page quality and overall ageing effects when contrasted with the US editions. Though there is no known direct evidence that it is so, this could imply they were printed elsewhere, or indeed first.

So if it were to be proven that any of the three known Price Variants of US original books - UK, Canadian and Australian - were printed first, before their US counterparts, whether in sequence in one complete run or an hour / day / week apart, would it matter?

In a discussion with some like minded friends I put forward the following view:

"I don't think we'll ever prove what came first for the early Marvels. It's too long ago for a Joseph Italiano figure to emerge now with info about printing practices in the early 1960's. And even if they did, it would likely be from an ageing memory and, therefore, questionable. More importantly, the US market appear to have little to no interest in it. Even if it were definitively proven the pence copies came first, they likely 'wouldn't care'. 

Here's how I feel about it. If the pence books were, say, run first to get them on the ship and, then, the US copies either later that day, the next day or even a week later, the totality would still represent the one whole print run. You can get too anal about it - if they printed half the books on Monday and the other half Wednesday, that doesn't mean Wednesday's copies are second printings. One copy has to be first, one has to be last. It may be one continuous run, or it may be staggered over runs because the paper run out. Or the machine broke. The covers were done separately anyway, so we don't know how that factors into it either - maybe the covers were printed first, but the interiors all at the same time? Who knows.

The key thing is - you can prove something, but it doesn't mean that the largest audience will give a damn. We may give a damn. But our US cousins will probably not, in the main.

I like facts. This happened first, this second, here's the evidence. It doesn't mean it has to be important. And I think it isn't to the majority. No US dealer / collector will ever hold his cents priced AF15 in his hands and view it less favourably because he hears it was printed an hour / day / week later than the pence copy. It doesn't say 'second printing' on the cents indicia. So it was made 'at the same time' regardless of what we prove. Fascinating isn't it."

So, you'll see that even though I'm known for my pence leanings, I say it probably "wouldn't matter". For the record, I have zero interest in the financial aspects / implications of the print run order. I'm interested in the implications for history, facts, how people feel etc, and thought it might make an interesting discussion. 

What do you guys think?

 

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4 hours ago, Get Marwood & I said:

What do you guys think?

Very little, generally. Hurts too much.

4 hours ago, Get Marwood & I said:

I say it probably "wouldn't matter".

I agree. Sadly, I think that most American collectors (which translates roughly as ‘most collectors’) have no knowledge of, or interest in any comic book produced for or in a foreign country. Even if, as we know (having the knowledge of all knowing something or other), that makes them a considerably more rare variant of the books they know and happily collect all the live-long day. So, it would make little difference to them what the printing order was. I say this as an American living in the UK who has been collecting for almost fifty years. It took me a good few years to appreciate the significance of these books & I’m old enough to remember a few of them (US pricing, obviously) from the spinner racks In King Super & Peoples Drug Store.

Looking at today’s market, the vast majority of collectors see the term ‘variant’ as a signifier of something specifically produced in small quantities and designed to be highly collectable, preferably with a signature defacing it and with a certificate of authenticity and absolutely no historical context attached to it whatsoever.

We represent a niche within a niche & rabbit holes are places most people send ferrets down. Or something slightly less cynical.:download:

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4 hours ago, Get Marwood & I said:

For the record, I have zero interest in the financial aspects / implications of the print run order. I'm interested in the implications for history, facts, how people feel etc, and thought it might make an interesting discussion. 

Taking finance out of it...

I'm one of those people who think comics are one of the truly American art forms and thus getting a comic printed in the US for a US audience matters.  If you told me that they pressed Miles Davis' - Birth of the Cool to ship overseas for British audiences first it wouldn't matter to me either.

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I am still amazed Disney hasn't started stamping each book off the press with a serial number and charged oodles of dollars for early numbers. I imagine people would pay big bucks for low number books.  $199 for book 1, $99 for 2-99, $49 for 100-250.

 

As far as this goes, one prominent NY dealer made the same observations about UK copies years ago.  As the books were being shipped by truck and then by freighter, I don't see how printing them at 8am instead of 11pm would make much difference Then again, were I sitting on numerous Australian Marvels, this would be huge.

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I collect American Comics. Foreign books don't interest me. I think most collectors here agree. I own about two boxes of foreign books, but they are curiosity pieces, along side books like Kool Aid Man and Captain Carvel.

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48 minutes ago, thunsicker said:

Taking finance out of it...

I'm one of those people who think comics are one of the truly American art forms and thus getting a comic printed in the US for a US audience matters.  If you told me that they pressed Miles Davis' - Birth of the Cool to ship overseas for British audiences first it wouldn't matter to me either.

As an Englishman, I think I would feel the same if the roles were reversed. Comics are indeed one of the great American art forms and they exist to satisfy the home audience. The books sent to the UK, Canada and Australia are small (but important) subsets which wouldn't exist if the US books had not been created. 

The subject can be emotive - I remember prickling slightly many years ago when a new Doctor Who episode was going to air in the US first. Outrageous! I thought :grin:

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52 minutes ago, shadroch said:

I am still amazed Disney hasn't started stamping each book off the press with a serial number and charged oodles of dollars for early numbers. I imagine people would pay big bucks for low number books.  $199 for book 1, $99 for 2-99, $49 for 100-250.

Give it time....

52 minutes ago, shadroch said:

As far as this goes, one prominent NY dealer made the same observations about UK copies years ago.  As the books were being shipped by truck and then by freighter, I don't see how printing them at 8am instead of 11pm would make much difference Then again, were I sitting on numerous Australian Marvels, this would be huge.

In what way Shadroch? Expand on that please. It's the point of the thread...

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50 minutes ago, shadroch said:

I collect American Comics. Foreign books don't interest me. I think most collectors here agree. I own about two boxes of foreign books, but they are curiosity pieces, along side books like Kool Aid Man and Captain Carvel.

Just to clarify, we're talking about genuine first printing price variants here, not reprints / repackaged books. Same presses, same place, same time (notwithstanding the order of production debate). Would a pence AF15 not interest you Shad?

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If I were to get my hands on a bunch of Australian AF 15, I'd have a vested interest in doing whatever I could to enhance their value. If someone thought the Australian copies came first and wants to pay more, I'd certainly encourage it.

Most Americans don't like pence copies.  I'm not a fan. If people do ask about them, they always ask for substantial discounts. It's not that Americans are uneducated about them, it's they generally don't want them.

Edited by shadroch
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43 minutes ago, shadroch said:

If I were to get my hands on a bunch of Australian AF 15, I'd have a vested interest in doing whatever I could to enhance their value. If someone thought the Australian copies came first and wants to pay more, I'd certainly encourage it.

Most Americans don't like pence copies.  I'm not a fan. If people do ask about them, they always ask for substantial discounts. It's not that Americans are uneducated about them, it's they generally don't want them.

There aren't any Australian AF15 price variants of course but I take your point.

Congratulations on 42k Shadroch - everyone seems to want a prize lately.  I'm pleased to say that yours is a copy of Dazzler #7. Pence copy :D

1012374118_2019-07-2219_15_47.jpg.146850e5538c9b554f97251fdc13fa18.jpg

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3 minutes ago, dupont2005 said:

I wouldn’t care. Foreign editions of American comics are completely off my radar, and in my opinion always a reprint even if distribution was off by a week or even a month. 

Not foreign editions dupont, price variants. They're not reprints.

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I too have held this position that Joseph holds, and I'll tell you why.

I picked up an Original Owner collection from far out West and that collection had less printing defects (on issues that are normally known to be rampant with printing issues) than issues that I normally come across.

For example, the FF #48 was perfectly centered with well centered staples - something very difficult to find if you've been searching for a perfectly centered, well stapled FF #48.

After seeing a run of mid 60s silver age books missing common printing defects I concluded that because they were early in the printing run (because they needed to be shipped West) the tolerances were tighter and less mistakes were made on the issues that were further from where the printing plants were.

Now, this is ASSUMING that it's important to have the books on the newsstand ontime.

If the books did not have to be on the newsstand on time, then they could ship them anywhere from the printing run.

Was it important to have books in the UK and Australia on the newsstand on time? Typical travel time was something like 4-6 weeks by ship, wasn't it?

If it was, then you could make the case that the earliest books got pulled for foreign markets, but I'm not sure it was so important to Marvel for the books to be on time in the UK or Australia.

---------------------------------------------------

RE: Colors of inks - I'm not sure if this matters or not, because inks are replenished many times across the print run of a quarter million books.

You could also make the same argument for machine tolerances of machines responsible for cutting and stapling. A good looking book could come from the middle of the print run when all the tolerances were reset and give the impression that it as from early on in the run.

----------------------------------------------------

Would it matter to me?

It probably would. Just as the variant market has started recognizing things like newsstand variants, Canadian variants, etc as being more rare, I would consider the earliest printings to be more desirable than later ones if the foreign prints were proven to be the earliest off the print run.

Also, I kind of like seeing UK and foreign versions, mainly because it's something different than the 1000's of copies of American versions I've seen.

If you could prove that the UK or Aussie versions were earliest of the run, I'd probably value them higher.

Also, I'd add that Joseph's history should probably be factored into his opinion.And that isn't meant as a negative thing. I would just be curious as to his experience and credibility.

 

Edited by VintageComics
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3 minutes ago, VintageComics said:

Also, I'd add that Joseph's history should probably be factored into his opinion.

Thanks Roy, nicely put. Joseph's position seems clear doesn't it. I've no reason to doubt his informed assertion that the early AUS books were produced first. But that was 1990, and only a handful of the books of that time have any real value. And by value, I don't necessarily mean monetary.  Now the pence copies.... if we could prove the early 60's books were printed first, that would include pretty much all the Marvel keys.

Like you say, pence books are that much scarcer and to me are things of beauty. As a comic collector, lover, enthusiast, I can't get my head around why people would dismiss them. They're so exciting!  The natural collecting progression for the collector who has everything (in cents). Maybe the completist mentality has something to do with it.

I like the linkages too, which I find fascinating. Pence copies are almost certainly the reason US price font variants exist. They are part of the history of US comic production. And surely we all want more knowledge, don't we? 

I think it matters. And not through any bias. If it were proven the other way - cents first - I'd be delighted,  just to know, to have it confirmed. Some of these books introduce some of the greatest fictional characters ever created. Some are worth a million. And we dont even know what order they were made!

 

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3 minutes ago, Get Marwood & I said:

Like you say, pence books are that much scarcer and to me are things of beauty. As a comic collector, lover, enthusiast, I can't get my head around why people would dismiss them. They're so exciting!  The natural collecting progression for the collector who has everything (in cents). Maybe the completist mentality has something to do with it.

That's why I started picking up some Pence copies of the PHM books after I finished off the cent copies. Something new to provide the thrill of the hunt.

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1 minute ago, bc said:

That's why I started picking up some Pence copies of the PHM books after I finished off the cent copies. Something new to provide the thrill of the hunt.

How do you feel when you hold one? Great aren't they. A friend of mine used to scorn my love of Mark Jewelers. Always slagged them off. Then he held a few. Felt the extra rigidity, the palpable difference. Felt the 'new wave of stuff to collect' bug.....

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2 minutes ago, Get Marwood & I said:

How do you feel when you hold one? Great aren't they. A friend of mine used to scorn my love of Mark Jewelers. Always slagged them off. Then he held a few. Felt the extra rigidity, the palpable difference. Felt the 'new wave of stuff to collect' bug.....

That's it in a nutshell. Just another cool rabbit hole to go down in this hobby of ours.

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