Don’t Use CCS! Beware! 0

[oldrover]

10 hours ago, Tony S said:

Amateur (C category) restoration are not good candidates for restoration removal. Almost never. If you are really lucky and it's one tiny spot, OK. But there is no guarantee that the initial grading notation of "very slight, slight or moderate" is particularly accurate. 

This is true... even when it's successful. Here's my mid-grade TTA 27, with minor color touch... they recommended removal, I did it, and the grade was 4.5. Which was nice. But...

...check out the center of the comic. They unrestored it by cutting a hole in the cover. Now, I'm in selling mode, so that's fine. And I sold it for $2700 or so. Even better. But that is not ideal.

[Sauce Dog]

55 minutes ago, oldrover said:

This is true... even when it's successful. Here's my mid-grade TTA 27, with minor color touch... they recommended removal, I did it, and the grade was 4.5. Which was nice. But...

 

 

...check out the center of the comic. They unrestored it by cutting a hole in the cover. Now, I'm in selling mode, so that's fine. And I sold it for $2700 or so. Even better. But that is not ideal.

"Yeah, we made it better....took it out back and put a hole in its head....ya' know, "better"" Riiigghhhtt

While the issue I'm considering getting the restoration removed on says all the color touch / pieces added are minor and on the right edge of the cover, I worry there are other spots or that the paper loss will be much more severe. I would have hoped CCS gives you a rough estimate on where the removal would happen so you can approve it prior to any work being done.

[oldrover]

IMHO in using CCS, you must remove your collector/aesthetist hat, and look purely for return on investment. That's how they do it. Anything else and you'll most likely be disappointed.

Of course, this is not the issue for the OP... CCS/CGC basically did not do what was agreed upon (remove the resto to acquire a Universal grade).

[Artboy99]

Moe evidence of why I would like to see the grading standards relax on restored books.

Honestly I prefer the look of the book with pieces still intact and it has a little color touching. Grade it an 8.5 blue label with color touch. Save the books!!!

[Xenosmilus]

5 hours ago, oldrover said:

They unrestored it by cutting a hole in the cover.

Is that what they really do to unrestore a book! I mean, if it is why even bother sending it in to them you can do it yourself!

[Xenosmilus]

Y'all are starting to worry me about CCS. I just sent a my first batch of books in to get pressed !

[Tony S]

1 hour ago, Xenosmilus said:

Y'all are starting to worry me about CCS. I just sent a my first batch of books in to get pressed !

You'll be fine.... Pressing and restoration removal might both be done by CCS, but they are entirely different services. 

I don't feel like getting deep into it but some of the more critical comments are - IMHO - lacking in perspective. I don't feel like putting up a wall of text trying explain it and I don't - and am not - defending CCS. But restoration removal is inherently a risky, uncertain procedure. There is no guarantee that ALL the restoration will be found and removed the first time.  And if you give that  truth any serious thought, you realize that is the reason why restoration removal is inherently risky. 

If there is no way to be 100% certain all restoration is identified up front,, then there is NO WAY of knowing just how damaged the book is going to be by removal of said restoration. It also becomes a "once you get started you can't stop" situation. You thought you were scrapping off a tiny bit of color touch. But then more is found. So you remove more. And maybe even a third go. Because it's hard to stop. You had a 9.2 restored that has dropped 8.5 restored and will probably drop more the third try.  But you have to keep trying because you've already lost two grades and it's still purple. 

The label designations are not as helpful as you might think. I've sent in books that were labeled "small amount of color touch" that I thought would get moderate to extensive. 

The only criticism I would level at CCS is they should - IMHO - simply refuse to remove amateur color touch. Yes, there is a market for it. But it cannot be done (the removal) without physically damaging the book. Which seems inherently "wrong". The definition of amateur color touch is essentially that it bleeds through the paper. So - like the TTA 27 above - the only way to remove it is to make holes. So it seems like it would be better for the hobby overall if CCS took the stance that they won't provide a service that permanently damages or makes the appearance of a book look hideous. 

But let's be fair. The problem doesn't start with CCS. The problem starts with collectors and dealers that want to make their books worth more $$ by getting them out of a restored grade. 

 

[Mercury Man]

3 hours ago, Tony S said:

But restoration removal

As a car guy, you are basically asking to put the rust back on.  I just don't get it, or want to get it.  If a book was 'restored' it was restored.  It was labeled as such, and that is what it is.  This is paper after all, one used for disposable entertainment at the time.  The fact it lasted 50-60-70-80 years old is pretty impressive in and of itself.  You need to monkey with it, and squeeze some extra dollars out of it, that is the risk you take.  

Edited July 28, 2019 by Mercury Man

[justafan]

On 7/27/2019 at 3:02 AM, Tony S said:

Amateur (C category) restoration are not good candidates for restoration removal. Almost never. If you are really lucky and it's one tiny spot, OK. But there is no guarantee that the initial grading notation of "very slight, slight or moderate" is particularly accurate. 

The bottom line is the book in question had more CT than the original grading would lead most to believe. It's too late now, but the book should have just been left alone. 

This. A's and Bs are the best candidates. Cs usually indicate bleed through which means hatchet job to remove.

Plus, OP, did you pay for the restoration removal prescreen?  it is an actual service they do provide and could have helped to determine the extent, certainty or lack thereof removing all CT, and degree of grade drop or estimates final grade.  they would also notify you of their analysis, recommendation and await your reply before proceeding. 

However, even if you didn't pay for the prescreen it appears that the restoration remover was a less experienced or less trained in the protocol for handling this.  I doubt Matt would have let that past him 2x without at least giving you a call.  I think you need to give Matt a call and ask him what really happened here because it looks like CGC's restoration detection expert is better than CCS. 

Well at least it presents one case that counters the perceived conflict of interest between CGC and CCS.

[Gotham Kid]

resto removal horrible results

https://comics.ha.com/itm/golden-age-1938-1955-/superhero/all-star-comics-8-dc-1942-cgc-vg-fn-50-off-white-pages/a/7211-91048.s?ic2=mytracked-lotspage-lotlinks-12202013&tab=MyTrackedLots-101116

 

[porcupine48]

22 minutes ago, Gotham Kid said:

resto removal horrible results

https://comics.ha.com/itm/golden-age-1938-1955-/superhero/all-star-comics-8-dc-1942-cgc-vg-fn-50-off-white-pages/a/7211-91048.s?ic2=mytracked-lotspage-lotlinks-12202013&tab=MyTrackedLots-101116

 

Looks like a family of bugs had a snack.Horrible destruction.

[Krismusic]

this sounds like a lack of communication between CCS to the OP. The fact that this happened twice is understandable to be upset with the lack of communication and looks like CGC resto detection was better than CCS kind of worrisome there. 

I was going to send a book in for Resto Removal and possible press it is a tear sealed to remove, but might have to think twice about it as this also sounds like CCS is very busy and they are letting a few things slip. 

[Bkd Reader]

I used CCS for two books back when I was a noob, same submission, strictly for pressing. The first came back with pressable defects in the graders notes (not ideal), the second had a staple popped (very not ideal). Haven't used them since.

[seanfingh]

17 hours ago, Gotham Kid said:

resto removal horrible results

https://comics.ha.com/itm/golden-age-1938-1955-/superhero/all-star-comics-8-dc-1942-cgc-vg-fn-50-off-white-pages/a/7211-91048.s?ic2=mytracked-lotspage-lotlinks-12202013&tab=MyTrackedLots-101116

 

To me, those scratch outs are much better than just tearing off a corner. I am just shaking my head at that corner.

[Mystafo]

Agreed...I've seen some way uglier white worms.  The hole in the center (of the TTA) takes the cake, though 

Edited July 29, 2019 by Mystafo

[HemiGTX]

Recently I sent in a moderately expensive GA book for pressing.  With the high hopes of a potential grade bump, as it had non-color breaking creases.

After everything was done. The book comes back the exact same grade. With the grader's note saying it has non-color breaking creases. 

I'll be calling them tomorrow... 

[telerites]

48 minutes ago, HemiGTX said:

Recently I sent in a moderately expensive GA book for pressing.  With the high hopes of a potential grade bump, as it had non-color breaking creases.

After everything was done. The book comes back the exact same grade. With the grader's note saying it has non-color breaking creases. 

I'll be calling them tomorrow... 

Perhaps they fixed the NCBCs that were present when you sent it in, but they created new ones when they worked on it 

Good luck and post how the call goes.

[Lazyboy]

On 7/27/2019 at 4:07 PM, Artboy99 said:

Moe evidence of why I would like to see the grading standards relax on restored books.

Honestly I prefer the look of the book with pieces still intact and it has a little color touching. Grade it an 8.5 blue label with color touch. Save the books!!!

It's a market problem, not a grading problem.

[Artboy99]

35 minutes ago, Lazyboy said:

It's a market problem, not a grading problem.

absolutely, but they are.hand in hand

[Tony S]

4 hours ago, HemiGTX said:

Recently I sent in a moderately expensive GA book for pressing.  With the high hopes of a potential grade bump, as it had non-color breaking creases.

After everything was done. The book comes back the exact same grade. With the grader's note saying it has non-color breaking creases. 

I'll be calling them tomorrow... 

I have no idea the book or where the creases. Nor if the press was done as well as possible.  But I would note it is possible to have non-color breaking creases that do not go away with pressing. Creases in white areas for instance are never going to be noted as "color breaking". White is the absence of color, there is no color to break. But the paper fibers can be damaged and the damage is obvious to see. In a line, like a crease.  Pressing makes it flat, but the line of damaged paper fibers is still there and can be seen.  Very light shades of color can be similar.