Bronty Posted September 7, 2019 Share Posted September 7, 2019 (edited) I give one example and now it’s “my 1.4% rule” my point was that all other things being equal percentage will IMO decrease as absolute value increases. There are many other factors including as was noted the degree of finish Edited September 7, 2019 by Bronty Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bluechip Posted September 7, 2019 Share Posted September 7, 2019 1 hour ago, Bronty said: I give one example and now it’s “my 1.4% rule” my point was that all other things being equal percentage will IMO decrease as absolute value increases. There are many other factors including as was noted the degree of finish I didn't mean it derisively but when you point it out I realize how you could take it that way. My bad. Bronty 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bronty Posted September 8, 2019 Share Posted September 8, 2019 4 hours ago, bluechip said: I do find some of his "unused covers" or "rejected covers" appealing. The ASM 97 is one I wished I'd bid higher for and while I would not value the unused ASM 97 more than the published cover (which is itself a classic), I would prefer it (aesthetically and historically, anyway) more than I would having many other Kane Spider-man covers in their published form. Unused (but finished ) covers are a whole other discussion, but I’m curious do you have a pic? I don’t remember seeing that Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Peck Posted September 8, 2019 Share Posted September 8, 2019 Fanzine Heritage 1B Flash Gordon cover prelim by Al Williamson Warren Vampirella #72 cover prelim by Enric Torres BCarter27 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bluechip Posted September 8, 2019 Share Posted September 8, 2019 1 hour ago, Bronty said: Unused (but finished ) covers are a whole other discussion, but I’m curious do you have a pic? I don’t remember seeing that The ASM cover sold low because the sellers didn't mention there was a completed Spidey drawing under the stat. While I was at that I threw in the prelim cover to MAD 24, which sold for a bit under 41K, which I imagine is a few shades over 1.4% of what the final published version would fetch. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bronty Posted September 8, 2019 Share Posted September 8, 2019 (edited) Does the mad 24 final (such as it is) exist? Another component of value is whether the final exists, surely. The prelim is more valuable when the final is not in existence . 41k seems strong to me for that (looks more like 25k to me personally) but as we all know it only takes two . Edited September 8, 2019 by Bronty Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bluechip Posted September 8, 2019 Share Posted September 8, 2019 2 hours ago, Bronty said: Does the mad 24 final (such as it is) exist? Another component of value is whether the final exists, surely. The prelim is more valuable when the final is not in existence . 41k seems strong to me for that (looks more like 25k to me personally) but as we all know it only takes two . I don't know whether the final cover for 24 exists, but Gaines was comparatively meticulous about saving art. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bronty Posted September 8, 2019 Share Posted September 8, 2019 True Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vodou Posted September 9, 2019 Share Posted September 9, 2019 $47.9m http://most-expensive.com/drawing-illustration Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bronty Posted September 9, 2019 Share Posted September 9, 2019 (edited) Wow. Now that’s a prelim! price aside it’s a beautiful drawing . Edited September 9, 2019 by Bronty Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vodou Posted September 9, 2019 Share Posted September 9, 2019 9 hours ago, Bronty said: Wow. Now that’s a prelim! price aside it’s a beautiful drawing . Honestly...it's just alright (imo). Not being a jerk or sarcastic, but punch to the gut art-wise...I've got much nicer. For (duh) much, much less. I do not have a nice large Burne Hogarth red pencil piece, but most of those I've seen are punch to the gut, especially in direct comparison to this here. It's the association ("prelim for...") that makes this really desirable (for the image, not the $, we all just have to ignore that to critically discuss it at all). When comparing Burne Hogarth to x, after already agreeing that the skill (at prelim level) is approximately the same, true one lead the way centuries earlier (but that's like saying St. John kills Frazetta by being "earlier"...no!) then we can figure out what a deal BH is for several k vs. $$$$$$$$ (yes, that's eight figures ) Which reminds me...I need a killer Burne Hogarth, something like this: or this: Now, please!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bronty Posted September 9, 2019 Share Posted September 9, 2019 14 minutes ago, vodou said: Honestly...it's just alright (imo). Its a lot more than just alright! That said, I 100% agree that you have to dismiss the price entirely if discussing the image quality and also dismiss the image quality entirely if discussing the price. Your Hogarth pieces are nice as well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vodou Posted September 9, 2019 Share Posted September 9, 2019 45 minutes ago, Bronty said: Your Hogarth pieces are nice as well. Not mine, but I'd like them to be! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vodou Posted September 9, 2019 Share Posted September 9, 2019 45 minutes ago, Bronty said: dismiss the image quality entirely if discussing the price. Nobody with the time/interest to read this board can maturely discuss $50m. That rare air belongs to people whose interests and motivations are beyond our mortal understanding and thus ability to rationally discuss. I'd make the same argument, actually, for numbers at/over $250k here even...that figure exceeds the net worth (ex-RE) of just about everybody, even if they dumped their whole collections at full/perfect FMV+ (and their wives/Sos let them put that much right back in!) This is why I tend to stay out of discussions betting whether something will sell for $600k or $750k...that $150k difference (just the difference!) means all the world to just about everybody except, what, maybe 10 people in the hobby that collect that particular sector of comic art? Maybe Gene knows, but I still don't...how many actual individuals can even swing that mid-six figure bat to begin with? (And if they can, once, how many times after that -how thin is the peak of the pyramid, guys that can swing that at least once annually? Uh uh. Very few.) All the rest that can't, or that can but don't collect Crumb (in the case of Fritz #1 cover, for example)...they can talk (lest I be accused, incorrectly, again, of suppressing opinion...lol) but their opinion to me is worth exactly the same as if they were silent And the vested (funded and interested)...well, they're probably mum publicly for the obvious reason. ESeffinga 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bronty Posted September 9, 2019 Share Posted September 9, 2019 I love when you go off on a tangent... its like a fun ride with an unknown destination ESeffinga 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vodou Posted September 9, 2019 Share Posted September 9, 2019 Just now, Bronty said: I love when you go off on a tangent... its like a fun ride with an unknown destination Stream of consciousness...even I don't know where it'll end up...sorta the point Bronty 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vodou Posted September 9, 2019 Share Posted September 9, 2019 Back on tangent...with that (non-comic) prelim hitting 50m...do we see the finished piece going for $5B? (1% x 100). I'm having real difficulty with that, perhaps an exception to Bronty's 1.4% thing that people pinned him to (unjustly imo). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bronty Posted September 9, 2019 Share Posted September 9, 2019 (edited) 21 minutes ago, vodou said: Back on tangent...with that (non-comic) prelim hitting 50m...do we see the finished piece going for $5B? (1% x 100). I'm having real difficulty with that, perhaps an exception to Bronty's 1.4% thing that people pinned him to (unjustly imo). again there are so many variables. I think its more like 1-25 % tbh but as was said usually 5-10%. In this case I'd guess there are so few items on the market by Raphael's hand that any percentage is pretty well out the window. At the end of the day, just like finals, you judge each prelim piece on its merits. Edited September 9, 2019 by Bronty BCarter27 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vodou Posted September 9, 2019 Share Posted September 9, 2019 4 minutes ago, Bronty said: so few items on the market by Raphael's hand that any percentage is pretty well out the window. Yes. But sovereigns (able to print their own currency) aside, there is an upper limit to individual absolute wealth, with less than 100% of that available to throw away on "art". No? I mean, many of the "B" folks are worth that because they haven't crashed the stock market by divesting themselves of their own companies, if nothing else, right? So when we talk "B" folk...most of them are not liquid at that level (though they may have access to a significant portion through the covered/pledge markets....but bankers are going to be squeamish lending at that level for any 'dead' asset) Using your 10-25%, we're at $200m-$500m, I can see that; I can see $1B too. But $5B...that's really getting up there. Back to sovereigns/institutional or family wealth (vs individual). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bronty Posted September 9, 2019 Share Posted September 9, 2019 (edited) 4 minutes ago, vodou said: Yes. But sovereigns (able to print their own currency) aside, there is an upper limit to individual absolute wealth, with less than 100% of that available to throw away on "art". No? That's germaine to the price of the final more than the price of the prelim. I know you know that... so I'm not sure where this is going. Here we have extremely large absolute values at play with extremely low supply of art from this extremely famous and high profile artist. Is it any wonder that the results may be wonky? We have several extremes at play. Edited September 9, 2019 by Bronty Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
