November HA auction 2 2

[gumbydarnit]

Odd, I don't see any of those pieces in the Nov auction (Adams' Batman, Kirby's Silver Surfer, Bolland's Killing Joke)  I checked via my computer and mobile.... Could someone post a link?

[gumbydarnit]

OK I knew I was doing something wrong these are under the misc category and they are not yet searchable:
https://comics.ha.com/c/search-results.zx?Ns=Item+Title|0&Ne=1058&N=52+792+4294943616+1070&ic4=Refine-ComicCategory-102615

Edited August 19, 2019 by gumbydarnit

[BCarter27]

1 hour ago, delekkerste said:

many people would take the Batman #251 cover over the Hulk #180 last page ($657K), more than the GL #76 cover ($442K), more than the DKR #2 cover ($478K), DKR #3 splash ($448K),

All of those examples are far more desirable, imo. (Maybe not "far" in the case of GL 76 as it is mainly hanging on historical significance, but still.)

Moving forward, Batman 251 will be a too easily-overlooked Joker story in the Batman mythos, and unlike those other trophies, I think it's future resale looks more bleak.

For other big trophy comps, I see much more value in Ditko or Romita Spidey at $100K+ levels.

1 hour ago, delekkerste said:

In a rising market, comps that are a year or two or three (let alone longer) may be stale.

Sure, but as you've also mentioned I think who shows up to bid affects things more at $100K+ auctions than whatever the rest of the OA market is doing. (Are those bidders funding out of pocket? How's their general portfolio doing? Are they selling art to fund the new piece? etc.)

Edited August 19, 2019 by BCarter27

[comix4fun]

Just now, BCarter27 said:

All of those examples are far desirable, imo. (Maybe not "far" in the case of GL 76 as it is mainly hanging on historical significance, but still.)

Moving forward, Batman 251 will be a too easily-overlooked Joker story in the Batman mythos, and unlike those other trophies, I think it's future resale looks more bleak.

For other big trophy comps, I see much more value in Ditko or Romita Spidey at $100K+ levels.

Sure, but as you've also mentioned I think who shows up to bid affects things more at $100K+ auctions than whatever the rest of the OA market is doing. (Are those bidders funding out of pocket? How's their general portfolio doing? Are they selling art to fund the new piece? etc.)

If you compare the 251 to Ditko or Romita Spidey it's got to be a quality-for-quality and key-for-key comparison. 

For Romita Spidey we're talking about ASM 50. For Ditko, well, no one's touching pretty much any of his ASM covers under $500k at this point...but if you picked out his best it's a significant multiple above the $100k level. At the prices the best Romita ASM covers and the Ditko ASM's you're paying a massive premium and I don't know if that equates to "value", or even a relative value to what is considered the most desirable of all Adams Batman covers. 

[delekkerste]

1 minute ago, BCarter27 said:

All of those examples are far desirable, imo. (Maybe not "far" in the case of GL 76 as it is mainly hanging on historical significance, but still.)

Moving forward, Batman 251 will be a too easily-overlooked Joker story in the Batman mythos, and unlike those other trophies, I think it's future resale looks more bleak.

For other big trophy comps, I see much more value in Ditko or Romita Spidey at $100K+ levels.

Sure, but as you've also mentioned I think who shows up to bid affects things more at $100K+ auctions than whatever the rest of the OA market is doing. (Are those bidders funding out of pocket? How's their general portfolio doing? Are they selling art to fund the new piece? etc.)

I think you are greatly underestimating the desirability of this cover.  Many people would rank this #1 in the pantheon of Bronze Age DC covers, Neal Adams covers and even Batman covers - at the very least, it's a strong contender in each category.  

Ditko or Romita Spidey at $100K+ levels may have more value/potential, but, a great Ditko Spidey page at, say, $175K, is still not the trophy that one of the top DC covers from an entire decade full of great covers would be.  

I firmly believe that Batman #251 is a piece that is going to grab the interest and attention of some of the biggest collectors out there.  Again, I'm sticking by my stance that $400K hammer/$480K with the juice is the absolute floor.  Maybe it doesn't get to the $600Ks or $700Ks, but, I think there's a good chance that it will.  

[BCarter27]

2 minutes ago, comix4fun said:

relative value

I find ASM 100, 121, and 155 to all be better buys at their relative value (and I'm a Batman guy through and through!)

4 minutes ago, delekkerste said:

Many people would rank this #1 in the pantheon of Bronze Age DC covers, Neal Adams covers and even Batman covers - at the very least, it's a strong contender in each category.

Definitely agree, but I think you are overestimating the desirability and size of the potential buyer pool for Neal Adams, Bronze Age Batman art, and Batman art in general (outside of Miller DKR and Bolland KJ.) I wouldn't want to be sitting on this cover in 10 years above a today price of $200-300K.

I think your Bronze bias slip is showing! :-)

 

[AnkurJ]

Joker is the main driver of this cover. I don’t know of any villain who has the level of global recognition and impact on the hobby. If it was any other villain, two face, penguin etc, cut the price in half.

Edited August 19, 2019 by AnkurJ

[BCarter27]

5 minutes ago, AnkurJ said:

Joker is the main driver of this cover.

I think the main driver is "best of all time" Adams Batman* and this story being a turning point in the Batman mythos. Joker is part and parcel of that and maybe hard to separate.

But I wouldn't value this down as a villain-centric cover the way I did the Cap-Skull cover earlier in this thread... You can't pull this cover out of the Batman canon without consequences. You could pull out the Cap-Skull cover.

 

*I personally like other Adams pieces more, aesthetically, but no need to flog that horse.

[Unstoppablejayd]

On 8/16/2019 at 7:28 PM, batman_fan said:

really?  Really?  

@stinkininkinI know this is up your alley and would love to hear your thoughts on it? 

[BCarter27]

It is interesting how this cover image is a complete abstraction of the Batman/Joker relationship. And yet Adams is known for bringing a more illustrative "realistic" style to comics. Funny that.

[delekkerste]

52 minutes ago, BCarter27 said:

I find ASM 100, 121, and 155 to all be better buys at their relative value (and I'm a Batman guy through and through!)

Definitely agree, but I think you are overestimating the desirability and size of the potential buyer pool for Neal Adams, Bronze Age Batman art, and Batman art in general (outside of Miller DKR and Bolland KJ.) I wouldn't want to be sitting on this cover in 10 years above a today price of $200-300K.

I think your Bronze bias slip is showing! :-)

 

I just can't see this one going for less than the ASM #100 @ $478K.  At worst, it does $480K IMO.  I mean, my friend didn't bat an eye when I told him we could see a final price as high as the $700Ks - his response was, and I quote verbatim, "Is it crazy to sell all my stocks and buy it? Kind of a serious question."  In his view, this is the greatest Batman cover of all-time, and he's a huge Batman fan (and he's also about the same age as you and Mel, so BA is not even his natural hunting ground!)  There are definitely going to be some heavyweights in the 48-63 age group who are going to be all over this I think. Not to mention, Jim/HA haven't exactly been going out of the way to hide the fact that they are buying art and comics for HA's own account (I've directly overheard some conversations on convention floors myself over the past year or two)...I think that alone puts in a pretty high floor on this piece.

ASM #121 was so long ago that it's an outdated comp at this point.  And the #155...the less said about that one, the better!!

And don't forget about all the private sales of marquee pieces at prices reputedly north of $500K...ASM 50, Silver Surfer 4, Hulk 340...and those are just the ones that are more or less widely known and that I can mention (there have been others that I cannot divulge ).  

Edited August 19, 2019 by delekkerste

[kimik]

9 minutes ago, delekkerste said:

I just can't see this one going for less than the ASM #100 @ $478K.  At worst, it does $480K IMO.  I mean, my friend didn't bat an eye when I told him we could see a final price as high as the $700Ks - his response was, and I quote verbatim, "Is it crazy to sell all my stocks and buy it? Kind of a serious question."  In his view, this is the greatest Batman cover of all-time, and he's a huge Batman fan (and he's also about the same age as you and Mel, so BA is not even his natural hunting ground!)  There are definitely going to be some heavyweights in the 48-63 age group who are going to be all over this I think. 

ASM #121 was so long ago that it's an outdated comp at this point.  And the #155...the less said about that one, the better!!

And don't forget about all the private sales of marquee pieces at prices reputedly north of $500K...ASM 50, Silver Surfer 4, Hulk 340...and those are just the ones that are more or less widely known and that I can mention (there have been others that I cannot divulge ).  

+1 

The only other Adams Bat/Tec cover that would likely sell for higher would be #227 IMHO. While Batman #232 is the more significant comic story-wise, #227 and #251 are more popular now due to the covers. This is good timing to bring the piece to market as well with the Joker movie coming out later this year. There has been a relative flood of Joker cover comics on the market as well.

[Bronty]

14 minutes ago, delekkerste said:

I just can't see this one going for less than the ASM #100 @ $478K. 

That's a fair point I guess.   

Edited August 19, 2019 by Bronty

[kimik]

On 8/17/2019 at 1:44 PM, NelsonAI said:

Someone is liquidating their entire collection and has managed to fly under the radar all these years.  

 

I had been told a decade or so ago that someone who had moved from New York to California (police officer, if I recall correctly) owned most of the Adams DC covers. Is that still the story?

[Bronty]

2 minutes ago, kimik said:

+1 

The only other Adams Bat/Tec cover that would likely sell for higher would be #227 IMHO. While Batman #232 is the more significant comic story-wise, #227 and #251 are more popular now due to the covers. This is good timing to bring the piece to market as well with the Joker movie coming out later this year. There has been a relative flood of Joker cover comics on the market as well.

227 is super cool for sure.

I like tec 400 as well.

[glendgold]

17 minutes ago, delekkerste said:

 (there have been others that I cannot divulge ).  

Excellent work, Agent Thirst Trap. The Master is pleased.

[PhilipB2k17]

11 hours ago, delekkerste said:

it's potentially the most admired/desired Neal Adams cover, one of the top contenders for best DC cover of the 1970s, and one of the best Batman and DC covers, period.  I'd be surprised if it hammers for anything less than $400K ($480,000 with the juice), while I wouldn't be shocked by anything up to $600K hammer ($720,000 with the juice), frankly. 

I’m going to go under the $600K. Just a feeling. 

[PhilipB2k17]

1 hour ago, kimik said:

+1 

The only other Adams Bat/Tec cover that would likely sell for higher would be #227 IMHO. While Batman #232 is the more significant comic story-wise, #227 and #251 are more popular now due to the covers. This is good timing to bring the piece to market as well with the Joker movie coming out later this year. There has been a relative flood of Joker cover comics on the market as well.

That Joker movie is going to depress the Joker OA market. 

[PhilipB2k17]

1 hour ago, delekkerste said:

I just can't see this one going for less than the ASM #100 @ $478K.  At worst, it does $480K IMO.  I mean, my friend didn't bat an eye when I told him we could see a final price as high as the $700Ks - his response was, and I quote verbatim, "Is it crazy to sell all my stocks and buy it? Kind of a serious question."  In his view, this is the greatest Batman cover of all-time, and he's a huge Batman fan (and he's also about the same age as you and Mel, so BA is not even his natural hunting ground!)  There are definitely going to be some heavyweights in the 48-63 age group who are going to be all over this I think. Not to mention, Jim/HA haven't exactly been going out of the way to hide the fact that they are buying art and comics for HA's own account (I've directly overheard some conversations on convention floors myself over the past year or two)...I think that alone puts in a pretty high floor on this piece.

ASM #121 was so long ago that it's an outdated comp at this point.  And the #155...the less said about that one, the better!!

And don't forget about all the private sales of marquee pieces at prices reputedly north of $500K...ASM 50, Silver Surfer 4, Hulk 340...and those are just the ones that are more or less widely known and that I can mention (there have been others that I cannot divulge ).  

I have a feeling it won’t do as well as people think. 

[Mephisto]

3 hours ago, delekkerste said:

I'm not saying that $600-700K+ doesn't feel high, but, it felt even higher when the Hulk #180 page hit the auction block and it got there,  There's certainly an element of the collecting public that would take the Hulk #180 page over the Bats #251, because Wolverine/Marvel/movies/Hugh Jackman is dreamy/etc., but, from an artistic/creative standpoint, Batman #251 is one of the real high points of comics.  I would disregard any "wonkiness" in the Batman figure and instead focus on the brilliant, memorable composition - the idea/concept, the angles, the menace in the Joker which cements the Batman franchise's image makeover from campy 1960s Adam West to the Dark Knight who battles truly psychotic/dangerous villains like The Joker (not the Cesar Romero version). I would disagree with the assessment that the actual rendering is secondary in this case; I think much of what is celebrated about this cover is the artistic merit, just not the figure rendering you are focused on.   

Long before this cover appeared I mentioned the story importance of Batman 251 to Gene and others. It is a very significant book. Everyone knows the Joker (and especially Batman) and has been exposed to him from Romero to Nicholson to Ledger. The same can’t be said of Green Lantern (or Green Arrow for that matter...sorry WB) I read the Green Lantern Adams stuff probably 15-20 years ago and they didn’t age particularly well back then. The hyperdermic needle is about the only memorable thing from that storyline for me.

I was born 10 years after Batman 251 came out but knowing the history of the Joker and reading the early stories you can see why it is so important in the history of the Joker mythos. Unlike most of the big Batman rogues Joker never disappeared for many years at a time and that is likely why he was never designated a first silver age appearance as Overstreet did with many other like Catwoman, Riddler, and Penguin. However, Batman 251 brings Joker back to what he originally was in the early stories a killer. Forget the menace the Joker projects on the cover, he actually kills someone the story for the first time in about 30 years! That was the good bye to the camp version that had been around for 30 years in the comics and not simply the Romero Joker seen on TV.