November HA auction 2 2

[grapeape]

3 hours ago, zhamlau said:

The committee will punish these heretics for overbidding, believe that. 

You can’t bid Top 5 money on a career 60 year hack!  

    Report them to the Minister of Rankings-Cabal.

We will begin 2 minutes of hate against Silvio Buscema now.

Begin.,,.,

Edited November 7, 2019 by grapeape

[Rick2you2]

13 hours ago, vodou said:

i'm sure you know better than me but my understanding (and the hobby's in general, I thought) was that the artist owns that one specific original but The Company (unless there's a specific contract otherwise) owns the characters, the logos, trademarks etc. So Neal could keep, burn, or sell his actual unique original but anything else...without further contractual agreement would not be his; it would be DC's.

It’s a little more complicated. The artist owns the whole work of art, including reproduction rights. The company has copyright and maybe trademark in the trade dress. The company also generally owns the copyright and trademark (if any) in the character. But since the company permitted the artist to use its copyrighted and trademarked material to create the work of art, it should be reproduceable and sellable by the artist, so long as the artist does not try to separate out the components and use or sell them for a different purpose. Let me add that when one gets down into specific details, results can vary from general rules. It is a messy body of law, and I am not an expert.

I just wanted to add that DC probably reserved a non-exclusive right to reproduce what Neil did, probably by way of contract. Note all the trade paperbacks out there which otherwise reproduce copyrighted art.

Edited November 7, 2019 by Rick2you2

[vodou]

2 hours ago, Rick2you2 said:

It’s a little more complicated. The artist owns the whole work of art, including reproduction rights. The company has copyright and maybe trademark in the trade dress. The company also generally owns the copyright and trademark (if any) in the character. But since the company permitted the artist to use its copyrighted and trademarked material to create the work of art, it should be reproduceable and sellable by the artist, so long as the artist does not try to separate out the components and use or sell them for a different purpose. Let me add that when one gets down into specific details, results can vary from general rules. It is a messy body of law, and I am not an expert.

I just wanted to add that DC probably reserved a non-exclusive right to reproduce what Neil did, probably by way of contract. Note all the trade paperbacks out there which otherwise reproduce copyrighted art.

Batman #251 is a 1973 comic, so 1976+ protections aren't in place, correct?

Also - was Neal standard work for hire or did he have a non-boilerplate contract with DC in 1972/73? I don't know, DC/Neal scholars...?

To some extent none of this matters and both DC and Marvel haven't show much willingness to take the legal approach, not even many cease 'n desists out there to my knowledge. Some of the mess would be if either suddenly became aggressively active, as a counter-argument would be why wait so long and complain so selectively (every convention, almost every Artists Alley table...a Batman, a Wonder Woman, some form of nearly nude Storm or White Queen, et al openly displayed...blahblah)? But anyway, without further information (per first several sentences above), the assumption would be the rights are with The Companies nearly whole and could be protection exercised at any time. No?

[Rick2you2]

8 hours ago, vodou said:

Batman #251 is a 1973 comic, so 1976+ protections aren't in place, correct?

Also - was Neal standard work for hire or did he have a non-boilerplate contract with DC in 1972/73? I don't know, DC/Neal scholars...?

To some extent none of this matters and both DC and Marvel haven't show much willingness to take the legal approach, not even many cease 'n desists out there to my knowledge. Some of the mess would be if either suddenly became aggressively active, as a counter-argument would be why wait so long and complain so selectively (every convention, almost every Artists Alley table...a Batman, a Wonder Woman, some form of nearly nude Storm or White Queen, et al openly displayed...blahblah)? But anyway, without further information (per first several sentences above), the assumption would be the rights are with The Companies nearly whole and could be protection exercised at any time. No?

If memory serves me, he was one of the first to insist that he owned the copyright and the originals. So, his was non-boilerplate.

To answer your question about cease and desist letters: free publicity. After Warhol did his famous Tomato Soup Can, Campbell's thanked him for the free publicity (they sent him a letter to that effect). Every time an artist draws a Batman for someone to hang on their wall, it encourage potential buyers to read the stories, see the movie, buy the tchotchkes, etc. And, it helps artists supplement their living.

To answer your other last questions, no. The company may also have copyrights in the page, including transfers by contract, which would not affect Neal's rights to reproduce the pages, and I expect that they cannot be asserted forever. There is a 3 year statute of limitations, but it can essentially be broadened by reproduction, or the claim estopped or laches can apply. https://patentlyo.com/patent/2014/05/copyright-preclude-limitations.html

[vodou]

1 hour ago, Rick2you2 said:

If memory serves me, he was one of the first to insist that he owned the copyright and the originals. So, his was non-boilerplate.

1973, early, let's not "assume" to contrary of industry standard until somebody that knows pipes in (if at all).

[NoMan]

i didn't read all this. I guess Ditko's brother is figuring the time is now.

[Rick2you2]

54 minutes ago, vodou said:

1973, early, let's not "assume" to contrary of industry standard until somebody that knows pipes in (if at all).

That really wasn't an uneducated assumption, but I don't know or don't remember the details. By early 1973, he had clout.

[vodou]

1 hour ago, Rick2you2 said:

That really wasn't an uneducated assumption, but I don't know or don't remember the details. By early 1973, he had clout.

Likewise (don't know or remember the details), I'd just like somebody that really knows to put it to rest as to date, that's all.

[Catwoman_Fan]

18 hours ago, NoMan said:

i didn't read all this. I guess Ditko's brother is figuring the time is now.

Which Ditko pieces came from the family, just the 2011 complete story? 

[NoMan]

37 minutes ago, Catwoman_Fan said:

Which Ditko pieces came from the family, just the 2011 complete story? 

I'm making a semi-educated guess based on this and that. I have no concrete evidence that is in fact the case.

In other words, a hunch.

[batman_fan]

A lot of price discovery going on with the stuff I am interested in 

[zhamlau]

I have a few lots in this auction. All sitting around 10-20% of what I want, but they all have dozens of watchers each already so I’m hoping.

[grapeape]

23 minutes ago, zhamlau said:

I have a few lots in this auction. All sitting around 10-20% of what I want, but they all have dozens of watchers each already so I’m hoping.

I wish you well. It’s early so may the late crazed bidders find your auctions. May they lose their senses and bid with abandon.

[Rick2you2]

11 hours ago, zhamlau said:

I have a few lots in this auction. All sitting around 10-20% of what I want, but they all have dozens of watchers each already so I’m hoping.

It may represent an increase in sniping. Why bid up early and see the prices rise overall? I am following a few things with interest, but I don't expect to bid until the end; and with the base price low, it gives me some comfort I can win relatively low.

[delekkerste]

12 hours ago, zhamlau said:

I have a few lots in this auction. All sitting around 10-20% of what I want, but they all have dozens of watchers each already so I’m hoping.

Same...I have 7 lots in the sale and, overall, the prices are only about 20% where I realistically expect them to end up.  

I'm hoping my lots don't fall through the cracks amidst the star-studded line-up they've assembled for the sale.  But, who am I kidding - I've never had much luck consigning art to any of the auction houses, so, I'm fully expecting to be disappointed as per usual.    

[grapeape]

2 hours ago, delekkerste said:

Same...I have 7 lots in the sale and, overall, the prices are only about 20% where I realistically expect them to end up.  

I'm hoping my lots don't fall through the cracks amidst the star-studded line-up they've assembled for the sale.  But, who am I kidding - I've never had much luck consigning art to any of the auction houses, so, I'm fully expecting to be disappointed as per usual.    

I think you’re going to see your art perform well in the end. Here’s what I see. I have my eyes all over that auction. It’s near impossible to focus and if you know grapeape his mantra is always focus focus focus.

Bidders are really wrestling with how the next 7 days are going to play out. The worst case scenario bidders freak out paralyzed and star struck. Good art falls off the radar and underperforms. Active bidders become sad faced voyeurs.

Now, here’s what I think is actually going to happen. A very few were ready for this auction. The rest of us trying to catch up as the inventory of primo offerings grew and grew.

On the final day most of us are going to come to our senses. Batman 251 is probably not going to be ours and so on. Despite that sadness of that self realization, a weight will lift. The daydreaming about where you should buy the lucky power ball ticket sinks into the floor. Now the focus will return. Where can I grab a solid gold lot? It’s not over it’s just begun.

The Fever will rise in all of us. The battle for Batman 251 will be our Super Bowl. We the giddy drunken side line spectators. 
 

The rest of the art will somehow seem obtainable in comparison and we will bid bid bid!!!

I think this auction will set records and it will drag all lots upward yours included.

To our buddies delekkerste and zhamlau. your early disappointments I believe caused merely by the fog of war.
When the dust settles you will see well bid sales for your lots.

Right now Sal Buscema is underperforming. Yet can there be any doubt that Sal will rise from the shadows and win the day?

Take heart 

[Rick2you2]

1 hour ago, grapeape said:

I think you’re going to see your art perform well in the end. Here’s what I see. I have my eyes all over that auction. It’s near impossible to focus and if you know grapeape his mantra is always focus focus focus.

Bidders are really wrestling with how the next 7 days are going to play out. The worst case scenario bidders freak out paralyzed and star struck. Good art falls off the radar and underperforms. Active bidders become sad faced voyeurs.

Now, here’s what I think is actually going to happen. A very few were ready for this auction. The rest of us trying to catch up as the inventory of primo offerings grew and grew.

On the final day most of us are going to come to our senses. Batman 251 is probably not going to be ours and so on. Despite that sadness of that self realization, a weight will lift. The daydreaming about where you should buy the lucky power ball ticket sinks into the floor. Now the focus will return. Where can I grab a solid gold lot? It’s not over it’s just begun.

The Fever will rise in all of us. The battle for Batman 251 will be our Super Bowl. We the giddy drunken side line spectators. 
 

The rest of the art will somehow seem obtainable in comparison and we will bid bid bid!!!

I think this auction will set records and it will drag all lots upward yours included.

To our buddies delekkerste and zhamlau. your early disappointments I believe caused merely by the fog of war.
When the dust settles you will see well bid sales for your lots.

Right now Sal Buscema is underperforming. Yet can there be any doubt that Sal will rise from the shadows and win the day?

Take heart 

Or, perhaps we have reached a tipping point in which the weight of all the art out there has finally caused spenders to take a second look at their portfolios and decided they have had enough with the steady stream of increasing prices over the last 30 years, and the beginning of the end of this game of musical chairs is finally coming to an end.

Nah.

But people could also be saving up to buy Christmas presents, and their loved ones just aren’t interested in Venom.

[batman_fan]

Good news for me is I moved some pieces of artwork in the last few days to add to my HA warchest 

[Sharkey]

1 hour ago, Rick2you2 said:

 

But people could also be saving up to buy Christmas presents, and their loved ones just aren’t interested in Venom.

Time to find new loved ones.....

[grapeape]

1 hour ago, Rick2you2 said:

Or, perhaps we have reached a tipping point in which the weight of all the art out there has finally caused spenders to take a second look at their portfolios and decided they have had enough with the steady stream of increasing prices over the last 30 years, and the beginning of the end of this game of musical chairs is finally coming to an end.

Nah.

But people could also be saving up to buy Christmas presents, and their loved ones just aren’t interested in Venom.

Ha ha that’s right Ricky. I’m staying positive!! This thing of ours has gas in the tank and many more miles to travel. I think The Donnelys and Romitaman should leave their collections to the Library of Congress. Rather than flood the market the loss of that inventory to collectors will strengthen art  collections. Available art will sell robistly.
Mike Burkey might be open to that. Now Los Bros? We’ll have to wait until that one bro “asks his brother.”

Now who the heck wouldn’t want Venom art for Christmas? Bah Humbug