LCS owner virulently hates CGC -- Is this common? 2 2

[Carlucci54]

I went into a local comic book store I had never visited before (two others are closer), mostly just to see what it was like.  I got to talking with the owner, and we got onto the topic of selling.  I told him I was back to collecting after a break since the mid-'80s.  I brought up the changes since then, such as the internet and eBay, but also third party grading and pressing (if there was cleaning and pressing around in the mid-'70s to mid-'80s, I wasn't aware of it).

I happened to mention my first pressing and grading/slabbing experience, and one book in particular that I thought was probably around VF/NM, and after I had it pressed and graded, it came back from CGC graded 9.8.

That set him off, and he immediately became angry.  "That's why I hate CGC!!" he said, not quite yelling.  I asked him why, and he said you shouldn't be able to press a book into a 9.8.  I then asked him what he meant by that, but he was already ranting about how he was not going to get in a discussion about CGC and he repeated his "You shouldn't be able to press a book into a 9.8!"  Next he went on about people he knew who got their comics slabbed, didn't like the grade, cracked and resubmitted and got a different grade.  Finally he told me again that he wasn't going to discuss it because he just hates CGC -- although by this time it was clear he didn't hate CGC versus other grading services, CGC was just standing in for all grading and slabbing.

I didn't say anything at all after that, and left soon afterward, but I realized his rant had actually made me uncomfortable.

Is this attitude common among LCS owners, or is this guy just special?

[shadroch]

It's the attitude of a lot of collectors, as well.

[Karl Liebl]

The truth hurts...

[comicquant]

I had an in-depth discussion about this same topic with a LCS owner and he said it boiled down to the fact that some could no longer grade the way they wanted to.  Good, bad or indifferent 3rd party grading set a bar and grading styles were widely categorized as a result.  This particular LCS owner said it didn't affect him much because his grading style essentially fell in line with CGC's but others who typically over-graded books were now being held accountable whether it be by comparison with graded books or customers getting raw books graded and them coming back 2 points less than the stated grade. 

The belief a book which has never been pressed, cleaned or otherwise altered should get the same grade no matter how many times its resubbed is a complete fallacy.  The grading process will not be 100% repeatable for the foreseeable future.  There are too many factors in play when grading the entire book (not just the cover which unfortunately seems to happen often).  As a test buy a raw book with an assigned grade from a LCS and either sell it back to them or have them grade it for you at a later date.  There's a much higher chance the LCS is going to assign a different grade as compared with a 3rd party grading service.   

As a collector I find 3rd party grading an invaluable service.  Of the available services I trust CGC's consistency the most.  But the same applies to dealers and their grading abilities.  There are dealers out there who are awful at grading raw books and there are those who are unusually consistent.  I buy raw books from the dealers whose consistency I trust and avoid those I don't.  If I avoid particular dealers because they're terrible graders its likely other collectors do the same.  There's a good chance those dealers aren't huge fans of 3rd party grading.  

Edited August 11, 2019 by comicquant

[Karl Liebl]

42 minutes ago, comicquant said:

I had an in-depth discussion about this same topic with a LCS owner and he said it boiled down to the fact that some could no longer grade the way they wanted to.  Good, bad or indifferent 3rd party grading set a bar and grading styles were widely categorized as a result.  This particular LCS owner said it didn't affect him much because his grading style essentially fell in line with CGC's but others who typically over-graded books were now being held accountable whether it be by comparison with graded books or customers getting raw books graded and them coming back 2 points less than the stated grade. 

The belief a book which has never been pressed, cleaned or otherwise altered should get the same grade no matter how many times its resubbed is a complete fallacy.  The grading process will not be 100% repeatable for the foreseeable future.  There are too many factors in play when grading the entire book (not just the cover which unfortunately seems to happen often).  As a test buy a raw book with an assigned grade from a LCS and either sell it back to them or have them grade it for you at a later date.  There's a much higher chance the LCS is going to assign a different grade as compared with a 3rd party grading service.   

As a collector I find 3rd party grading an invaluable service.  Of the available services I trust CGC's consistency the most.  But the same applies to dealers and their grading abilities.  There are dealers out there who are awful at grading raw books and there are those who are unusually consistent.  I buy raw books from the dealers whose consistency I trust and avoid those I don't.  If I avoid particular dealers because they're terrible graders its likely other collectors do the same.  There's a good chance those dealers aren't huge fans of 3rd party grading.  

This is not going to be solved here.  it costs a LOT of money to refresh a book and in some cases more than the book is worth

[badback83]

5 hours ago, Carlucci54 said:

I went into a local comic book store I had never visited before (two others are closer), mostly just to see what it was like.  I got to talking with the owner, and we got onto the topic of selling.  I told him I was back to collecting after a break since the mid-'80s.  I brought up the changes since then, such as the internet and eBay, but also third party grading and pressing (if there was cleaning and pressing around in the mid-'70s to mid-'80s, I wasn't aware of it).

I happened to mention my first pressing and grading/slabbing experience, and one book in particular that I thought was probably around VF/NM, and after I had it pressed and graded, it came back from CGC graded 9.8.

That set him off, and he immediately became angry.  "That's why I hate CGC!!" he said, not quite yelling.  I asked him why, and he said you shouldn't be able to press a book into a 9.8.  I then asked him what he meant by that, but he was already ranting about how he was not going to get in a discussion about CGC and he repeated his "You shouldn't be able to press a book into a 9.8!"  Next he went on about people he knew who got their comics slabbed, didn't like the grade, cracked and resubmitted and got a different grade.  Finally he told me again that he wasn't going to discuss it because he just hates CGC -- although by this time it was clear he didn't hate CGC versus other grading services, CGC was just standing in for all grading and slabbing.

I didn't say anything at all after that, and left soon afterward, but I realized his rant had actually made me uncomfortable.

Is this attitude common among LCS owners, or is this guy just special?

There is a shop very close to me where the former owner, now just manager, refuses to buy/trade CGC graded material.  Does not care what the book is.  He doesn’t want it.  I found this out a few years ago.  I asked him why and he said he didn’t want to get into the story of why.  Something supposedly happened years and years ago.  Who knows.

[romanheart]

3rd party grading is generally a strict grading standard. I can see how it would have clashed greatly with the grading standards before their existence.

[OrangeNemesis]

i mean, he's got valid points

[NoMan]

for a mega key, i would have been terrified to buy without the help of CGC (resto detection, ect.). The LCS owner OP talks about does have some points but going into an angry diatribe with essentially a stranger is kinda odd and not a good way to make friends. 

You should have stopped him and just shown him this video and said CGC produced and shot it in their new media division:

 

Edited August 11, 2019 by NoMan

[wombat]

Sounds like his issue was with pressing, not third party graders. 

[Mercury Man]

High dollar, mega keys, it's probably the necessary 'evil', that you need a 3rd party like CGC.  

My issue, is that people have gone slab happy.  So many non key, mid grade books being submitted.   Are we going to nitpick if a Fantastic Four #103 (as an example), is a 4.5 or a 5.0?! 

[D84]

34 minutes ago, Mercury Man said:

High dollar, mega keys, it's probably the necessary 'evil', that you need a 3rd party like CGC.  

My issue, is that people have gone slab happy.  So many non key, mid grade books being submitted.   Are we going to nitpick if a Fantastic Four #103 (as an example), is a 4.5 or a 5.0?! 

Part of the reason that is happening is the speculation market.  Some people slab everything in hopes some completely inane character will appear in a movie.

[Buzzetta]

 

7 hours ago, shadroch said:

It's the attitude of a lot of collectors, as well.

My take on this was that many comic shop owners in the early 2000's were not very willing to embrace CGC and their grading standards due to a conflict between CGC's and their grading scale.  A store advertising a NM comic would only rate a grade worth of a 7.0 in many cases if submitted to CGC. I still see that mentality across LI.  Last winter I saw a book labeled as VF at a show but there are multiple problems that would have pushed it into the 3.0-4.0 range.  

Newer stores MAY be against it because it is an added cost on their overhead to sell a book which does not make fiscal sense for many newer issues.  However if they were to buy a collection and come across some high dollar books, sell a book for a couple of thousand, I think they need to embrace a third party grading service, if anything, for their own protection.  

[shadroch]

As a new shop owner, I'm at a loss to explain why I have this book in a professionally graded slab and this one is just raw. If I don't trust myself to grade a $500 book, why should the customer trust my judgement  on a $50 book. 

[Ride the Tiger]

Some people are sitting in their living rooms adjusting their antennas so that they can get a signal.

[Buzzetta]

As a customer I am not touching your raw $500 book though. 

[shadroch]

11 minutes ago, Buzzetta said:

As a customer I am not touching your raw $500 book though. 

That's cool cause when Netflix hints it is going to make  show, I will add another zero.

[Buzzetta]

1 minute ago, shadroch said:

That's cool cause when Netflix hints it is going to make  show, I will add another zero.

 - I don't go chasing netflix 1st appearance nonsense of peripheral characters... after they announce a show. 

My buying habits are mostly at auction these days through CLink, CC, Heritage, or something similar.  I find I get better deals there than at shows or stores. 

[blazingbob]

The reason that there are those that hate CGC is the fact that nobody has every been formally trained how to grade.  There is NO grading college,  no self appointed expert or group that teaches from written standards. 

You may quote the Overstreet grading guides but frankly after two attempts and lousy photography the standard "Grading is subjective" continues to be used almost 45 years since I started (1973).

Whenever I get into grading arguments I ask who taught the person how to grade.  It isn't meant as an insult,  it is actually an insight on how they learned and what they learned.  Each teacher has his/her own perk list of likes/dislikes.  

They determine that this defect means that the book will grade no higher then this versus what the standard may be.

CGC has some very strict criteria on certain defects and is very lax on others.  CGC is looser on Golden age then silver even though the books may exhibit the same defect.  

I also feel that every seller has his/her "comfort grade",  they grade that grade very well,  others they have a hard time with. 

Anybody with proprietary grading standards just wants to keep grading a mystery.

Pricing a book and having you guess the grade is a way to avoid grading arguments.

Purposely under grading is a way to avoid returns.  It has nothing to do with you being a hard grader. 

If you don't have good light or squint when you are looking at books you might want to consider grading glasses.  Put the ego aside and admit that your eyesight is no longer what it was. 

I've heard it said and frankly I agree,  one of the harder grades to grade is a FN.  

Since no company has published standards we continue to fight over grades given.   Grading contests,  dealer grading lists,  etc.  

As with any other business/hobby you should continue to learn as you go on.  I've learned a few grading tips and share them when asked.  It is amazing what happens to your grading ability when you are looking at books from a different perspective. 

If a LCS hates CGC it reinforces the fact that CGC does not always do a good job with the first time submitter/dealer.  I have said to them before that not everyone walks up to a grading company and submits books.  Sometimes you have to go to them and convince them that the books they have priced at this would sell for more when graded.  Sometimes you have to be blunt and tell a seller that they are missing defects.  At least you are taking a little time before and saving yourself a lot of disgruntled customers when they get books back they are a lot lower then they expect.   

 

Edited August 11, 2019 by blazingbob

[adampasz]

8 hours ago, Carlucci54 said:

Next he went on about people he knew who got their comics slabbed, didn't like the grade, cracked and resubmitted and got a different grade.

Was the different grade ... lower? 

I think LCSs are missing by not carrying slabs. I hate the process of buying "wall books" at an LCS. You have to ask the employee (often not the owner) to pull the book down, remove from bag to see the back cover, make sure there is good lighting, etc. Then you need to make a judgement within a few minutes. It's much easier to hold a slab in hand and inspect it.