How does CGC determine pedigree authenticity?!
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Since a signature has to be witnessed by CGC to be deemed authentic by them then how on Earth can a book be determined a pedigree comic unless they took the books directly from Edgar Church's trunk and immediately slabbed them?!  I know the Church books have markings, but some pedigrees have no distinguishing marks so how do they authenticate a Silver Age 9.2/9.4 versus a pedigree 9.2/9.4?  Certificates of authenticity wouldn't wash with a signed book. 

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A lot of pedigree books have distinguishing factors, whether cover markings, interior markings, or even specific smells.

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43 minutes ago, Coverless 9.8 said:

how do they authenticate a Silver Age 9.2/9.4 versus a pedigree 9.2/9.4?  

A certificate of authenticity or proof of chain of ownership both work.  I just had a bronze submission graded this summer, and the two pedigree comics with certificates both received the proper designation.  Other times, I've provided a sales slip or an information strip from the mylar the comic was shipped in to me, and those have always worked as well.

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Mark Haspel when he worked there was generally very good at knowing the pedigree's as well as Matt.  

Normally a pedigree had to have a master list that CGC could match up against.  

As others have stated other pedigree's have distinguishing date stamps,  name stamps,  smell,  etc.  

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I don’t have a lot of faith in the current staff at CGC to be able to determine pedigrees without markings or COAs. I sent in several Church books that I bought directly from Chuck after he found the collection. These were late ‘40’s/early ‘50’s issues with no markings.  I noted them as such. None came back with notations on the cases. 

I sent them to the “other guys”. I spoke to West over there. He said he took a quick “sniff” and knew right away I was right. He and maybe just a few other guys in the hobby are VERY well versed in pedigrees. 

I just don’t think CGC has people with enough experience to do this. 

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1 minute ago, blazingbob said:

Mark Haspel when he worked there was generally very good at knowing the pedigree's as well as Matt.  

Normally a pedigree had to have a master list that CGC could match up against.  

As others have stated other pedigree's have distinguishing date stamps,  name stamps,  smell,  etc.  

Yeah Haspel and Matt are very knowledgeable but they don’t grade books for CGC.

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1 minute ago, Robot Man said:

Yeah Haspel and Matt are very knowledgeable but they don’t grade books for CGC.

You do know Matt is the head grader,  right?

Mark is a consultant for CGC

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1 minute ago, blazingbob said:

You do know Matt is the head grader,  right?

Mark is a consultant for CGC

No, did not. I assumed he was in charge of the restoration and “manipulation” dept. at CGC. I didn’t realize he was involved in the actual day to day grading process.

He obviously did not sniff the very distinct smell of the Church books I submitted... 

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So I'm guessing that you didn't follow up with them to ask why they weren't noted as pedigree's?

He may have not been the finalizer since I'm not exactly sure when you sent them in per your post.

They would have never left CGC if I saw they were not noted properly.  

 

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Yes, when. I got them back. I was told that I didn’t have enough documentation. Heck, I bought them from Chuck direct in the mid ‘70’s. I didn’t expect them to take my word for it.  If I decide to send in any more of them I will request that he personally checks them out. He is a busy guy and not someone I know well so it’s a bit hard to make this happen. 

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CGC and pedigree's has always crossed me the wrong way.  Unfortunately, they have become the de-facto strong arm of what can carry a pedigree label or not, even going as far as to create "collections" to conflate the designation. Given that CGC has taken the hard stance that any book printed after 86 cannot hold the pedigree designation even though they were part of the recognized pedigree, has always rubbed me the wrong way in a misguided gate keeping kind of way.

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Out of curiosity, what does an Edgar Church book smell like?

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8 minutes ago, vheflin said:

Out of curiosity, what does an Edgar Church book smell like?

Like a Chateau la Grangere, Saint-Emilion Grand Cru, 2004.

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7 hours ago, namisgr said:

A certificate of authenticity or proof of chain of ownership both work.  I just had a bronze submission graded this summer, and the two pedigree comics with certificates both received the proper designation.  Other times, I've provided a sales slip or an information strip from the mylar the comic was shipped in to me, and those have always worked as well.

So a COA is good enough to establish a pedigree, but, not for a Signature? 

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44 minutes ago, vheflin said:

Out of curiosity, what does an Edgar Church book smell like?

Like a chocolate dream on a cloud of puppies....

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25 minutes ago, aszumilo said:

 

 

So a COA is good enough to establish a pedigree, but, not for a Signature? 

Yes. "Pedigree fraud" isn't nearly as prevalent as signature forgery.

Yes, I recognize that that's not necessarily the most logically sound argument, but the fact that pedigrees are 1. generally recognizable from the books themselves, and 2. don't command much of a premium, means that their designation need not be as stringent as witnessing signatures.

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4 hours ago, Robot Man said:

I sent them to the “other guys”. I spoke to West over there. He said he took a quick “sniff” and knew right away I was right...

I believe that is called a 'smelligree' which is far more prestigious than any now common comic pedigree...

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I sent in a high-grade Keen Detective Funnies that I bought directly from Joe Tricarchi back in the day, Larson copy. CGC would not certify it as a pedigree for some reason. After speaking with them, I sent the book back in for review; it returned again not certified as a pedigree. Questioning the decision again, I was told to speak with Matt directly (but have yet to do so).

I have submitted several second-hand (mid-grade) Centaur Church books that I bought directly from Chuck at SDCC circa ‘81. Dropped them off at WonderCon last March, have yet to get the books back (but have already received all my other submissions). I presume the delay is that are trying to judge the pedigree (fingers crossed).

One thing I noticed about the above books is that the Church smell is now almost non-existent. I use multiple micro-chamber sheets in all my books, I’m guessing that those sheets absorbed the distinct odor over time.

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