What to do when you receive a CGC 9.8 really isn't a 9.8? 1 1

[newshane]

1 hour ago, kav said:

and that is true but I didnt want to get into it as I could see a wall of text in my future if I did. 

I get my experience from the grading contests and I do progressively better each year.

Grading from a scan is an exercise in futility. I guess it's better than nothing though. 

[kav]

If CGC is not giving 9.9s as a conscious choice even when the book is actually a 9.9, that would be dishonest.  I do not believe CGC would do that.  Also how do they decide when to give the magical 9.9 under that theory?  Roll some dice?  And all the graders are in on it?  "Ok boys this one gets a 9.9-you know what I'm saying?"
None of that makes any sense whatsoever, regardless if you 'submit books' or not.

[kav]

1 minute ago, newshane said:

Grading from a scan is an exercise in futility. I guess it's better than nothing though. 

I believe someone was hired by CGC based on grading contests?  Can someone confirm this?  If so it would suggest the opposite.  Also that fact that the same people do well every year and people like myself get better at it every year.

[newshane]

15 minutes ago, kav said:

I believe someone was hired by CGC based on grading contests?  Can someone confirm this?  If so it would suggest the opposite.  Also that fact that the same people do well every year and people like myself get better at it every year.

Good luck spotting a 9.9 or a 10.0 based on a scan. 

The difference between a 4.5 and a 6.0? As long as there are no hidden defects or interior issues, that is quite a bit easier to do. 

[kav]

1 hour ago, newshane said:

Good luck spotting a 9.9 or a 10.0 based on a scan. 

The difference between a 4.5 and a 6.0? As long as there are no hidden defects or interior issues, that is quite a bit easier to do. 

You're missing the point I'm making tho.

I am saying: CGC does not artificially not give out 9.9s when they should be giving 9.9s.

If CGC loosened up and gave out as many 9.9s as some would like, the value of 9.9s would drop drastically.

That is all I am stating, and as I said, I do not need to 'submit books' to make these observations.

[Artboy99]

2 hours ago, Hollywood1892 said:

CGC must be aware of the difference in value from a 9.6, 9.8, 9.9

Eg

9.6 $200.00

9.8 $350.00

9.9 $3000.00

Or you can take new mutants 98 and work the monetary scale that way....

Because a 9.9 sold for 11k USD whereas a 9.8 sells for about $900 USD. 

My point being grading needs to be a defined science with minimal to no room for error.

I agree

[kav]

Just think how ticked all the 9.9 owners of 11K books would be if CGC 'loosened up' as some would like.  Yeah your 11K book now there's dozens of em and yeah yours is now worth 3K-

[RockMyAmadeus]

5 hours ago, Artboy99 said:

I can also argue that I can visually observe what an athlete's issue is as to what their weakness is in performing an action in their sport and I can do that without any experience what-so-ever in actually performing the action myself.

Example: I can watch Vinnie Garopolo lift his back foot instead of planting it when he throws and know that the throw is not going to be as strong or as accurate.

I will say the more experience someone has at grading and submitting to CGC, the more likely they are to be able to predict what the CGC grade will be.

 

So you claim. But I imagine Vince Garopolo knows far, far more about how strong or accurate his throw will be...as do the others who perform the same activity...than you or any other mere observer could ever be.

Claiming that observation alone can teach you everything you need to know about an activity, without experience, is not very reasonable...to say the least. But, hey...CGC board gotta CGC board.

[RockMyAmadeus]

3 hours ago, newshane said:

Grading from a scan is an exercise in futility. I guess it's better than nothing though. 

Observation teaches everything, dontcha know. What's interesting is that even CGC...professional graders, who do this every day...have launched their eBay service, and they will only grade from a scan in a potential wide range...8.0 to 10, for example. There's a considerable difference between an 8.0 and a 9.8, but CGC doesn't feel comfortable narrowing it down more than that. They recognize the futility of grading from a scan.

[kav]

Yes astronomers will confirm mere observation is absolutely useless-they have actually flown to other galaxies and black holes and stuff and touched them-

[RockMyAmadeus]

The problem with these discussions is that, unfortunately, you have people with absolutely no experience trying to rationalize...based on their limited understanding...how the process works. 

This is the parable that comes to mind:

 

[kav]

I'll repeat-I can state that CGC does not fiddle with grades to keep down the # of 9.9s and 10.0s and that loosening up and giving out the plethora of 9.9s and 10.0s and some would like would drastically affect the value of those books.  No need to submit to reach this logical deduction.  No elephant involved, here.  Even someone who didnt know what a comic book was could easily reach this simple conclusion.  

[Hollywood1892]

2 minutes ago, kav said:

I'll repeat-I can state that CGC does not fiddle with grades to keep down the # of 9.9s and 10.0s and that loosening up and giving out the plethora of 9.9s and 10.0s and some would like would drastically affect the value of those books.  No need to submit to reach this logical deduction.  No elephant involved, here.  Even someone who didnt know what a comic book was could easily reach this simple conclusion.  

Hmmmm..

[Hollywood1892]

2 hours ago, kav said:

Just think how ticked all the 9.9 owners of 11K books would be if CGC 'loosened up' as some would like.  Yeah your 11K book now there's dozens of em and yeah yours is now worth 3K-

I agree...

The value of a book,even though it's a 9.8 or 9.9 is determined by as much of the books that are out there

[kav]

1 minute ago, Hollywood1892 said:

I agree...

The value of a book,even though it's a 9.8 or 9.9 is determined by as much of the books that are out there

I dont know why this is such a difficult concept.

[Hollywood1892]

Just now, kav said:

I dont know why this is such a difficult concept.

It's never been for me...I totally understood it as soon as I started collecting....its common sense to know that the value of a collectible is based on its rarity

[RockMyAmadeus]

4 hours ago, Hollywood1892 said:

CGC must be aware of the difference in value from a 9.6, 9.8, 9.9

Eg

9.6 $200.00

9.8 $350.00

9.9 $3000.00

Or you can take new mutants 98 and work the monetary scale that way....

Because a 9.9 sold for 11k USD whereas a 9.8 sells for about $900 USD. 

My point being grading needs to be a defined science with minimal to no room for error.

What you want is impossible, because grading is subjective. It must be subjective, or it does not work. It needs to be subjective because there are an infinite number of variables in the grading process that must be applied to each and every book. 

"Then how can you ever say a book is a 9.9 at all?" - the answer to that is consensus. When you have a group of EXPERIENCED (not casual observers from a distance) look at a book, and they all say "yes, this book is virtually flawless, and a superior copy to a typical 9.8"...then the grade ought to be 9.9.

CGC used to have three different people look at books. Now, according to their guarantee, that number is "at least two." And they're not called "graders"..they're called "professionals" (whatever that means.)

It makes perfect sense: CGC wanted to be taken seriously...understandably...in the early days, when they were vulnerable. They didn't want to be seen as handing out inflated grades...so they didn't. You'll notice, PGX gives out a lot of silly 9.9 and 10 grades, because they're not a legitimate company. But there's nothing nefarious in what CGC is doing...it's just a tweak that ought to be adjusted.

Value is utterly irrelevant to the entire discussion. 

When you say "CGC must be aware of the difference in value..." do you mean the entire company? They're not. Employees who have experience in the market will be, but most of the employees don't. A lot of them come from non-comic backgrounds, and this is just a job. There is certainly an awareness of "big books"...but the difference between a 9.6 NYX #3 vs. a 9.8? Most employees would never be able to tell you.

[kav]

1 minute ago, Hollywood1892 said:

It's never been for me...I totally understood it as soon as I started collecting....its common sense to know that the value of a collectible is based on its rarity

  even before you submitted books?>?????  I DONT BELIEVE IT

[Hollywood1892]

Just now, RockMyAmadeus said:

What you want is impossible, because grading is subjective. It must be subjective, or it does not work. It needs to be subjective because there are an infinite number of variables in the grading process that must be applied to each and every book. 

"Then how can you ever say a book is a 9.9 at all?" - the answer to that is consensus. When you have a group of EXPERIENCED (not casual observers from a distance) look at a book, and they all say "yes, this book is virtually flawless, and a superior copy to a typical 9.8"...then the grade ought to be 9.9.

CGC used to have three different people look at books. Now, according to their guarantee, that number is "at least two." And they're not called "graders"..they're called "professionals" (whatever that means.)

It makes perfect sense: CGC wanted to be taken seriously...understandably...in the early days, when they were vulnerable. They didn't want to be seen as handing out inflated grades...so they didn't. You'll notice, PGX gives out a lot of silly 9.9 and 10 grades, because they're not a legitimate company. But there's nothing nefarious in what CGC is doing...it's just a tweak that ought to be adjusted.

Value is utterly irrelevant to the entire discussion. 

When you say "CGC must be aware of the difference in value..." do you mean the entire company? They're not. Employees who have experience in the market will be, but most of the employees don't. A lot of them come from non-comic backgrounds, and this is just a job. There is certainly an awareness of "big books"...but the difference between a 9.6 NYX #3 vs. a 9.8? Most employees would never be able to tell you.

Yes

But the problem with the subjectivity is the value of the product,and that can be hundreds or if not thousands of dollars 

[comicdonna]

1 minute ago, Hollywood1892 said:

It's never been for me...I totally understood it as soon as I started collecting....its common sense to know that the value of a collectible is based on its rarity

Demand is also a factor.  A book can be rare and have little value.