Tim Bradstreet Punisher 50 HA Sunday Result - What am I missing 1 1

[malvin]

Hi All,

Maybe it's just 2 crazy bidders, but I noticed that a Tim Bradstreet punisher cover just finished at $5K on HA sunday

HA Link

My recollection was that they run for around ~$1K, and some better ones ~$2K, am I missing something? Is this one special or it's just 2 people that have to have it?

Malvin

[aokartman]

56 minutes ago, malvin said:

Hi All,

Maybe it's just 2 crazy bidders, but I noticed that a Tim Bradstreet punisher cover just finished at $5K on HA sunday

HA Link

My recollection was that they run for around ~$1K, and some better ones ~$2K, am I missing something? Is this one special or it's just 2 people that have to have it?

Malvin

It's a nicely detailed, but not complicated cover.  Plenty of hardware, grids, skull, large main character.  A very nice piece!  David

[delekkerste]

7 hours ago, aokartman said:

It's a nicely detailed, but not complicated cover.  Plenty of hardware, grids, skull, large main character.  

Really nice cover indeed.  One needs to factor in both the passage of time and the quality of the piece being comped when looking at historical comps.  Bradstreet Punisher is not really in my wheelhouse, but, I have occasionally thought about getting one; many of the covers to me are not all that when you look at the OA, but, this one would have caught my attention had I seen it - not to the tune of $5K, but, certainly more than $1-2K.  

For the right example that one may have been searching for a long time, what's paying a little more in this market, especially at the low end?  If whoever bought this Punny cover overpaid, it's probably not by more than a couple of grand, which, in most of the real world, is a lot of money, but, let's face it, in the twisted version of reality that is the original comic art market, it's a rounding error to many collectors' budgets.  

I remember when I was the underbidder on that great Jon Sable cover that sold for $5K+ a couple of years ago at HA and people were saying the same thing, "Are these covers really $5K+ now?" (at the time, most '80s indie covers were $1-3K items)  I'm sure it was just two people (me and the winner) who took it to that level, but, that's all it takes to tango (and, had I been watching the auction live, I would have gone higher...I regret having missed out on a perfect example from the run).  

I suspect that the collector who holds out for paying $5K for a great Tim Bradstreet Punisher cover when it finally turns up probably has a nicer collection than the collector who is content paying $2K for a  example.  Not many great collections are built without paying up for great pieces; in fact, I'm in the midst of a deal where I'm paying a substantial premium to the agreed-upon valuation of my all-time favorite artwork by a certain artist - better to overpay for something great that you really, really want than pay the going rate for something that's not going to tickle your toes.  

Edited August 26, 2019 by delekkerste

[PhilipB2k17]

37 minutes ago, delekkerste said:

Really nice cover indeed.  One needs to factor in both the passage of time and the quality of the piece being comped when looking at historical comps.  Bradstreet Punisher is not really in my wheelhouse, but, I have occasionally thought about getting one; many of the covers to me are not all that when you look at the OA, but, this one would have caught my attention had I seen it - not to the tune of $5K, but, certainly more than $1-2K.  

For the right example that one may have been searching for a long time, what's paying a little more in this market, especially at the low end?  If whoever bought this Punny cover overpaid, it's probably not by more than a couple of grand, which, in most of the real world, is a lot of money, but, let's face it, in the twisted version of reality that is the original comic art market, it's a rounding error to many collectors' budgets.  

I remember when I was the underbidder on that great Jon Sable cover that sold for $5K+ a couple of years ago at HA and people were saying the same thing, "Are these covers really $5K+ now?" (at the time, most '80s indie covers were $1-3K items)  I'm sure it was just two people (me and the winner) who took it to that level, but, that's all it takes to tango (and, had I been watching the auction live, I would have gone higher...I regret having missed out on a perfect example from the run).  

I suspect that the collector who holds out for paying $5K for a great Tim Bradstreet Punisher cover when it finally turns up probably has a nicer collection than the collector who is content paying $2K for a  example.  Not many great collections are built without paying up for great pieces; in fact, I'm in the midst of a deal where I'm paying a substantial premium to the agreed-upon valuation of my all-time favorite artwork by a certain artist - better to overpay for something great that you really, really want than pay the going rate for something that's not going to tickle your toes.  

When does the bubble pop, though? 

[dichotomy]

It's a great cover. Regarding the bubble, I think 5k was probably right at the top, IMO.

[GreatEscape]

I owned the Bradstreet Punisher #5 cover-- bought it for $800 a couple years ago and sold it here on the boards for $1500 in June.  IMO a choice Bradstreet cover, but I never valued it above $2k based on comps.   Saw a different Bradstreet cover in SDCC, priced sub-$2k if I recall. 

Edited August 26, 2019 by GreatEscape

[comix4fun]

1 hour ago, delekkerste said:

Really nice cover indeed.  One needs to factor in both the passage of time and the quality of the piece being comped when looking at historical comps.  Bradstreet Punisher is not really in my wheelhouse, but, I have occasionally thought about getting one; many of the covers to me are not all that when you look at the OA, but, this one would have caught my attention had I seen it - not to the tune of $5K, but, certainly more than $1-2K.  

For the right example that one may have been searching for a long time, what's paying a little more in this market, especially at the low end?  If whoever bought this Punny cover overpaid, it's probably not by more than a couple of grand, which, in most of the real world, is a lot of money, but, let's face it, in the twisted version of reality that is the original comic art market, it's a rounding error to many collectors' budgets.  

I remember when I was the underbidder on that great Jon Sable cover that sold for $5K+ a couple of years ago at HA and people were saying the same thing, "Are these covers really $5K+ now?" (at the time, most '80s indie covers were $1-3K items)  I'm sure it was just two people (me and the winner) who took it to that level, but, that's all it takes to tango (and, had I been watching the auction live, I would have gone higher...I regret having missed out on a perfect example from the run).  

I suspect that the collector who holds out for paying $5K for a great Tim Bradstreet Punisher cover when it finally turns up probably has a nicer collection than the collector who is content paying $2K for a  example.  Not many great collections are built without paying up for great pieces; in fact, I'm in the midst of a deal where I'm paying a substantial premium to the agreed-upon valuation of my all-time favorite artwork by a certain artist - better to overpay for something great that you really, really want than pay the going rate for something that's not going to tickle your toes.  

They are nice pieces, memorable in the run, etc. I can see why people like them and want to collect them and remember them well.

Personally, I had been on the hunt for one around the time of the Thomas Jane Punisher film. I picked up the special edition DVD and there was a feature called "Drawing Blood" or something like that where Bradstreet takes you through his "process" for creating a piece. He's got a full on photo studio, photographs models (or in the case of the Jane Punisher covers, he had Thomas Jane pose for them), then scans the picture in, creates a rough outline that's printed on Bristol Board and inks over that. 

It was all a little too technologically guided for me. For others it's obviously not a stumbling block and they are nice covers to look at. To me, though, the process used to create them quelled my desire to own one, and I always had the feeling that it was why the value remained relatively constant over the years. 

[John E.]

3 hours ago, GreatEscape said:

I owned the Bradstreet Punisher #5 cover-- bought it for $800 a couple years ago and sold it here on the boards for $1500 in June.  IMO a choice Bradstreet cover, but I never valued it above $2k based on comps.   Saw a different Bradstreet cover in SDCC, priced sub-$2k if I recall. 

That's a really nice cover. I wish I hadn't missed it!

[John E.]

I like Punisher. I like Tim Bradstreet. I follow Tim's market. And yes, even Tim's better Punisher covers sell for no more than $2K. I bid on this thinking it was going to be the same ol' comp but tapped out when it was apparent that it was going higher than that, but I didn't expect it to go that high.

My reasoning for the price is that it's a "milestone" issue (#50) and it's a very nice, broody, ideal image of Bradstreet's Punisher. A lot of the Tim's cover that have gone on the market lack a great shot of Punisher--you might get a face, a skull, or a gun, but often not all three at once (with GreatEscape's an exception). 

Yeah, I agree with Chris--I'd love a Bradstreet cover but his process makes me balk at paying too high of a price.

[ESeffinga]

I think Tim's process has kept much of his art prices tempered compared to some of his peers. I bought my Hellblazer cover from Tim (it was the first of his run), at Dragon Con in I think, '99. It was $800. The current prices form his other Hellblazer covers (some of which are even still available) has been roughly $800-1500 give or take. Not much growth there, compared to what else $800 would have bought in '99. Though I really was a 1 and done Bradstreet collector. That one scratched the itch, and still had the stylized art that didn't look quite as hardcore traced off the reference as later pieces became.

I think the same could be said of Darrow as well. Different process entirely, but their unique art processes definitely seem to factor into the pricing of much of their work. Even the "top shelf" pieces.

[vodou]

Bradstreet's art looks great...unless you've played with Photoshop contrast slider just once. Then the magic is...gone. A generation ago everybody wasn't playing with PS in third grade so he could still get away with it. But now, even blonde cheerleaders knows PS.

[charleycor]

Agreed on all fronts and not sure you are missing anything Malvin.  This price seems awfully high for a Bradstreet Punisher cover when reviewing comps, but I can certainly see someone (or several someone(s)) bidding up and potentially overpaying for a good example from this run.  Ennis-penned Punisher Max pages - including to some lesser degree the Bradstreet covers - have always seemed under-valued/under-priced to me, particularly in light of the fact that many view these Max stories as among the best, if not THE best, Punisher stories ever produced and as they appear to remain very popular with multiple trades, hardcovers, omnibuses, and “complete” collections keeping this run in print since the original publication (which is now 15 years ago and counting!). 

Proving though that I could be way off the mark and not really know what I am taking about, I have had posted on CAF for over 3 years the first splash from the Punisher Max #50 issue, the opening title page behind the now record-breaking $5K Bradstreet cover, and it has only captured 213 views as of today (and 0 comments).   

Charley

https://www.comicartfans.com/GalleryDetail.asp?GCat=4310

     

[wurstisart]

I have no idea but it seems 2 people wanted to have this piece. I like his cover but that price is not marked price for his Punisher pieces. Maybe 50 % of it.

[awayne83]

This is the scenario everyone hopes for when they send a piece off to auction lol. Seem to remember this happening with that Deodato Elektra cover on Ebay or wherever last year

[Catwoman_Fan]

20 hours ago, ESeffinga said:

I think Tim's process has kept much of his art prices tempered compared to some of his peers.

....
I think the same could be said of Darrow as well. Different process entirely, but their unique art processes definitely seem to factor into the pricing of much of their work. Even the "top shelf" pieces.

Hi, 

Can you explain what makes their creative processes so unique?  

[ESeffinga]

Someone else mentioned a brief overview of Bradstreet’s process earlier.

In a nutshell, he hires models, he outfits them as if they are appearing in a movie (full costumes, props, etc.) does lighting, sets, etc. Takes photograph.

Then he light boxes this photograph onto tracing paper. Picking and choosing what to draw and what to leave off. Once the pencil tracing is done, he lightboxes the pencils and inks onto the final art board.

The pencils to a cover I’ve owned for 20 years are still for sale. I thought about buying them as a curiosity, but never got around to it. They’d end up staying in a portfolio. Felt like a waste of $.

http://www.splashpageart.com/GalleryPiece.asp?Piece=61&ArtistId=83&Details=0&Mag=Hellblazer&From=TDetail

 

The finished cover art...

https://www.comicartfans.com/gallerypiece.asp?piece=277301

 

Now, I am not as dismissive as some, when it comes to what Bradstreet does. It’s not magic, and he’s not really a great traditional illustrator, looking and drawing.

There is nothing inherently wrong with reference photos. In fact there are a LOT of artists that would benefit from looking at life a little more frequently. I think shooting one’s own reference is to be commended. Too often lazy artists just swipe from magazines (or worse, each other). And Bradstreet takes it further than most in that regard.

But what Bradstreet is doing is much less about traditional drawing and more about a means to an end hand crafted product/look. And in many ways an archaic technique that is made much much easier by modern technology and the control it gives before the traci g starts. 

In the 90s when Tim started the work was largely as much about what he left out or stylized as he included. But the last 20 years have seen these tracings to have increased fidelity to the photo, which beggars the question, what’s the point?

You’ll never see a Bradstreet “action” piece. Everything is posed. Generally pretty naturally/casually.

 So he isn’t high on a lotta peoples favorite artists lists. He makes a product that has a certain look. I like it, and am cool with how he got it there. Though I’d never be spending many $K for a piece produced in that manner, when I am such a fan of drawing and painting, and think of what else could be bought with that money.

I think Ross’ work is stiffer and more boring looking than Bradstreet. He puts more illustrating and traditional art into what he paints. But it’s not always the better for it. IMO.

But at least he can do action. Sorta.

 

 

 

 

Edited August 27, 2019 by ESeffinga

[ESeffinga]

Darrow also uses vellum/tracing paper. 

Darrow draws everything by hand. He mostly does pencils on one board, and then inks on Vellum.

A sort of thick tracing paper, for lack of a better description.

The deal with Darrow is he re-draws things a LOT.  Search Darrow Big Guy and Rusty. Play the match game. How many people have what is in essence the exact same piece, because Geoff inks new copies onto vellum and takes them to shows for sale.

So a lot of Darrow’s inks aren’t the inks, they are copies. Not usually for pages, but more from pinup type drawings he sells.

His published stuff can sell for more, but his drawings are all over the place and a lot of the “battle” drawings you see are a character from one drawing inked to face off against an inked character from a different drawing. So a lot of recycling his own drawing. There are worse ways to be an artist, but it’s certainly tamped down his overall art values on his work, I’d argue.

And I own Darrow art as well. So this isn’t a criticism. Mostly just recommend you know what you are buying before you buy from any artist. Research and understanding the market is always key.

 

https://www.comicartfans.com/GalleryPiece.asp?Piece=53122

 

https://www.comicartfans.com/GalleryPiece.asp?Piece=676585

 

https://www.comicartfans.com/GalleryPiece.asp?Piece=1404807

 

https://www.comicartfans.com/GalleryPiece.asp?Piece=1327831

Edited August 27, 2019 by ESeffinga

[Nexus]

5 hours ago, ESeffinga said:

Darrow also uses vellum/tracing paper. 

Darrow draws everything by hand. He mostly does pencils on one board, and then inks on Vellum.

A sort of thick tracing paper, for lack of a better description.

The deal with Darrow is he re-draws things a LOT.  Search Darrow Big Guy and Rusty. Play the match game. How many people have what is in essence the exact same piece, because Geoff inks new copies onto vellum and takes them to shows for sale.

So a lot of Darrow’s inks aren’t the inks, they are copies. Not usually for pages, but more from pinup type drawings he sells.

His published stuff can sell for more, but his drawings are all over the place and a lot of the “battle” drawings you see are a character from one drawing inked to face off against an inked character from a different drawing. So a lot of recycling his own drawing. There are worse ways to be an artist, but it’s certainly tamped down his overall art values on his work, I’d argue.

And I own Darrow art as well. So this isn’t a criticism. Mostly just recommend you know what you are buying before you buy from any artist. Research and understanding the market is always key.

 

https://www.comicartfans.com/GalleryPiece.asp?Piece=53122

 

https://www.comicartfans.com/GalleryPiece.asp?Piece=676585

 

https://www.comicartfans.com/GalleryPiece.asp?Piece=1404807

 

https://www.comicartfans.com/GalleryPiece.asp?Piece=1327831

I asked Geof once if he'd rather draw the same piece five times, or sell the piece one time for five times as much. He said he understood what the duplicates do to his art market, but that he likes keeping his art affordable for fans. It also allows him to draw what he wants to draw, and not have to take commissions, while still providing fans the opportunity to own something of his. My preference is to own Darrow art that isn't a copy, but I absolutely respect where he's coming from, too.

[Nexus]

6 hours ago, ESeffinga said:

You’ll never see a Bradstreet “action” piece. Everything is posed. Generally pretty naturally/casually.

That's why I chose this Bradstreet PUNISHER cover in my collection:

https://www.comicartfans.com/gallerypiece.asp?piece=140409

Rare dynamic example.

Big fan of the Ennis MAX run, and had to have a piece. Got this fairly early on in my collecting, to give you an idea of how much I prioritized getting one. But even then, had a "seen one, seen them all" feeling with his posed covers. For me, this one, also from a highwater mark arc for the series, was "perfect". Again, to me.

As for value, not sure I could get much more than what I paid 15 or so years ago. But if I had to pay $5K to get it now...I actually might. That run holds up! So while this $5K result was definitely high, not totally surprised by it, either.