CGC cases and Creep Factor 1 1

[GreatCaesarsGhost]

This book has waviness at the top of the covers. I don’t know if it’s the holder causing it, or if it started out that way. I suspect the former, since I think otherwise it would have appeared in the grader notes. Besides, I remember seeing some posts here somewhere on the boards that certain older generation holders created what was termed, if memory serves correctly, “creep factor”. Of course I can’t find the string now. 

This book was graded in 2004. I have no way of knowing if it’s ever been reholdered, so I’m just assuming it’s a 2004 case. 

Can anyone shed any light on my conundrum? I will reholder if it’s the old holder causing the waviness.  

And at this point, I’m not sure a simple reholder will magically solve the problem. I don’t believe in pressing, but that might be the only solution 

Help!!

[theCapraAegagrus]

11 minutes ago, GreatCaesarsGhost said:

This book has waviness at the top of the covers. I don’t know if it’s the holder causing it, or if it started out that way. I suspect the former, since I think otherwise it would have appeared in the grader notes. Besides, I remember seeing some posts here somewhere on the boards that certain older generation holders created what was termed, if memory serves correctly, “creep factor”. Of course I can’t find the string now. 

This book was graded in 2004. I have no way of knowing if it’s ever been reholdered, so I’m just assuming it’s a 2004 case. 

Can anyone shed any light on my conundrum? I will reholder if it’s the old holder causing the waviness.  

And at this point, I’m not sure a simple reholder will magically solve the problem. I don’t believe in pressing, but that might be the only solution 

Help!!

You mean "creep engine". IIRC, the generation holder your comic is in was introduced circa 2005, so it must have received a re-holder (if I'm not mistaken). This case isn't helping the comic IMO.

[MrWalkingDead]

that's an amazing book

Edited August 30, 2019 by MrWalkingDead

[GreatCaesarsGhost]

10 minutes ago, theCapraAegagrus said:

You mean "creep engine". IIRC, the generation holder your comic is in was introduced circa 2005, so it must have received a re-holder (if I'm not mistaken). This case isn't helping the comic IMO.

My book was graded 11/04, so I’ll bet I’ve got the magic creep engine case. Thank you very much for taking the time to help me

 

 

[comicquant]

Your book was definitely reholdered at some point between 2006 and Q1 2016 and is in a 2nd gen holder.  Since it was graded in 11/04 it originally had the "old label" 1st gen holder.  There are several factors which can cause the gentle wave but is most likely caused by the case.  CGC recommends having books reholdered every 7 years.  I imagine this has to do with the life expectancy of the micro-chamber and possibly the structural integrity of the case/inner well.  If this were my book I would have it reholdered.  Actually, it looks undergraded so I'd have it regraded!    Beautiful copy BTW!!!

[Mystafo]

The books that I've seen with waves caused by the "creep engine" effect were in the first gen of new holders without the visible inner well that yours has now.  There were just 2 loose sheets of mylar on each side of the book and the outer shell being able to "scrunch" these 2 sheets is what caused the book to take on the wave.  These first "new" cases also had the new labels that CGC now uses, not the lighter printed style with the pq in the center.  See pic.

[GreatCaesarsGhost]

I appreciate the replies.  The prevailing wisdom seems to point toward getting it reholdered.  Mystafo's response seems logical, but I'm going to give reholdering a shot.

I've never pressed a book before, and don't know if the simple act of reholdering might serve to straighten out the bends.  No, I haven't been smoking too much dope;  I honestly don't know.

Should I press out the waviness?  I surely do not want to pop a staple or detach a centerfold, so it wouldn't be my first choice.  I'm happy to keep this at a 9.0 and am not trying to get a better grade.  Just trying to get the best look I can get, without taking undue risks

If there's another forum to ask about pressing, please forgive me in advance

Edited August 30, 2019 by GreatCaesarsGhost

[vheflin]

Don't press it.  Heat, moisture, and high pressure on 80 yr. old newsprint is lunacy.

The new holder might flatten it, if not, you're no worse off and can go from there.

Myself, I'd crack it out then put it in a 4 mil mylar under 5 comics and let it sit.  

[The Lions Den]

From looking at the photos, it appears the width of the current well is a bit too small and may be causing the waviness you're seeing. I'd see if CGC could fix that before trying anything else. And if you do decide to have it reholdered, don't crack it out----send it back to them just the way it is...  

[nightmare305]

I am having the same issues with some of my books. I will have them reholdered. My question is. Will they regraded my books or keep the same grade? I’m happy keeping the same grades I have on them. 

[szav]

On 8/30/2019 at 2:07 PM, GreatCaesarsGhost said:

I appreciate the replies.  The prevailing wisdom seems to point toward getting it reholdered.  Mystafo's response seems logical, but I'm going to give reholdering a shot.

I've never pressed a book before, and don't know if the simple act of reholdering might serve to straighten out the bends.  No, I haven't been smoking too much dope;  I honestly don't know.

Should I press out the waviness?  I surely do not want to pop a staple or detach a centerfold, so it wouldn't be my first choice.  I'm happy to keep this at a 9.0 and am not trying to get a better grade.  Just trying to get the best look I can get, without taking undue risks

If there's another forum to ask about pressing, please forgive me in advance

Back when the creep engine was in effect...like march-may of 2016 give or take a month or so... I bought a book off comicconnect that looked great in their scans, but when it arrive it was a wavy mess.  CC refused to do anything about it.  CGC on the other hand reholdered it, free of charge, they paid the shipping to and from.  Granted it was a 3.5 and not a 9.0 so it wasn't a huge deal.

Point I was trying to make is, contact CGC, they may actually comp the reholder if they find out this case was from that time period.

I wouldn't risk a press.  Who knows, a few years in a new holder may have a bit of a pressing and straightening effect anyway.

[mschmidt]

On 8/30/2019 at 4:53 PM, comicquant said:

Your book was definitely reholdered at some point between 2006 and Q1 2016 and is in a 2nd gen holder.  Since it was graded in 11/04 it originally had the "old label" 1st gen holder.  There are several factors which can cause the gentle wave but is most likely caused by the case.  CGC recommends having books reholdered every 7 years.  I imagine this has to do with the life expectancy of the micro-chamber and possibly the structural integrity of the case/inner well.  If this were my book I would have it reholdered.  Actually, it looks undergraded so I'd have it regraded!    Beautiful copy BTW!!!

CGC hasn't actually recommended this for a long time - and even when they did it was due to misconceptions about the life expectancy of micro-chamber paper, it never had anything to do with the case or inner well.

[mschmidt]

On 8/30/2019 at 3:52 PM, GreatCaesarsGhost said:

My book was graded 11/04, so I’ll bet I’ve got the magic creep engine case. Thank you very much for taking the time to help me

 

 

•  

You don't. The "creep engine" case is the one that Mystafo showed in his pic - it was the first iteration of the 3rd generation CGC case that contained no inner well which caused books to scrunch up over time. Your book is sitting in a 2nd generation case with an inner well.

With that said, it does look like the inner well is too tight for the size of your book. I'd send a couple of photos to CGC and ask them to reholder it in the thicker case.

[comicquant]

12 hours ago, mschmidt said:

CGC hasn't actually recommended this for a long time - and even when they did it was due to misconceptions about the life expectancy of micro-chamber paper, it never had anything to do with the case or inner well.

There are paper preservation/conservation sites out there who say the MicroChamber paper becomes inert after 7+ years (depending on the type of paper) and that it should be replaced.  Regardless of the state of the inner well I would want the paper protected if it needs it.  I wonder if this is where cgc (or whoever it was) came up with 7 years.

[The Lions Den]

1 hour ago, comicquant said:

There are paper preservation/conservation sites out there who say the MicroChamber paper becomes inert after 7+ years (depending on the type of paper) and that it should be replaced.  Regardless of the state of the inner well I would want the paper protected if it needs it.  I wonder if this is where cgc (or whoever it was) came up with 7 years.

I think you're correct about this. But as I recall, that actually was perpetuated by one of the folks working in the customer service department. There certainly wouldn't be anything wrong with having the paper changed every 7 years, but I'm not sure it's absolutely necessary. I've cracked out books that were graded more than 13 years ago, and there was no sign of any degradation to the microchamber paper. Of course, environmental changes and proper storage conditions would likely be a factor... 

[Tony S]

Mystafo had the correct reply. The OP's book currently sits in a Generation 1 (the original) holder. The Generation 2 holder that caused waves was only used for a few months - April 2016 to June 24, 2016 . There is NO REASON to believe the CGC case is causing waviness in the OP's book. 

The book could be reholdered for a modest fee ($15 plus shipping). But IMHO, the best route with this book would be:
1) Send it to CCS for pressing evaluation (screening) . If CCS says it's a good pressing candidate, go for it. If they say no, then get the reholder.  For a book at this price level, the evaluation will be free IF the book is subsequently pressed. 

But if you are categorically opposed to pressing, just send the book back in for reholder. It's cheap, the new holder looks nice. You could even ask for and pay the extra $5 for the Captain America label. 
 

[comicquant]

16 minutes ago, Tony S said:

Mystafo had the correct reply. The OP's book currently sits in a Generation 1 (the original) holder. The Generation 2 holder that caused waves was only used for a few months - April 2016 to June 24, 2016 . There is NO REASON to believe the CGC case is causing waviness in the OP's book. 

The book could be reholdered for a modest fee ($15 plus shipping). But IMHO, the best route with this book would be:
1) Send it to CCS for pressing evaluation (screening) . If CCS says it's a good pressing candidate, go for it. If they say no, then get the reholder.  For a book at this price level, the evaluation will be free IF the book is subsequently pressed. 

But if you are categorically opposed to pressing, just send the book back in for reholder. It's cheap, the new holder looks nice. You could even ask for and pay the extra $5 for the Captain America label. 
 

The one that didn’t have the inner well was gen 3 I thought.  Old label gen 1, 2006 was gen 2, gen 3 (the big oops) was spring 2016 the gen 3.5 (gen 3 fix) was June/July 2016

[GreatCaesarsGhost]

22 minutes ago, comicquant said:

The one that didn’t have the inner well was gen 3 I thought.  Old label gen 1, 2006 was gen 2, gen 3 (the big oops) was spring 2016 the gen 3.5 (gen 3 fix) was June/July 2016

I posted a topic asking about the evolution of the CGC holders, and CGC wouldn’t let me. You are hitting on some info I seek here

[mschmidt]

On 9/3/2019 at 1:19 AM, comicquant said:

There are paper preservation/conservation sites out there who say the MicroChamber paper becomes inert after 7+ years (depending on the type of paper) and that it should be replaced.  Regardless of the state of the inner well I would want the paper protected if it needs it.  I wonder if this is where cgc (or whoever it was) came up with 7 years.

I've never seen the 7 years mentioned anywhere other than the CGC site - I actually used the "Ask a Librarian"-feature on the Library of Congress website at one point to ask about this and the reply that I got back was that as far as they were concerned there was no rule-of-thumb in regards to when MCP becomes inert.

CGC's recommendation never made any sense to me - even if the MCP does become inert, it's not like it's harmful to the book; it's just no longer absorbing any potential off-gassing. Which would be an issue if the CGC slabs are air-tight, but they aren't. 

[Tony S]

On 9/2/2019 at 8:23 PM, comicquant said:

The one that didn’t have the inner well was gen 3 I thought.  Old label gen 1, 2006 was gen 2, gen 3 (the big oops) was spring 2016 the gen 3.5 (gen 3 fix) was June/July 2016

If this is so I'm unaware. I've unslabbed hundreds - maybe close to a thousand - CGC graded books. Any difference between the holders from the very first to April 2016 isn't obvious. Just changing the appearance of the labels (you mention "old label gen 1") wouldn't mean anything as far as the holder goes.