GA 9.4 to 9.6 to 9.8... Observing a trend 3 3

[Mr. Lady Luck]

20 hours ago, Pokecollectoramy said:

I havent seen too many 9.8s myself but was shocked when I saw the 9.9 edgar church on metropolis right now!

Just think of the massive amounts of non-restorative restoration that went into this book.

[Gotham Kid]

3 hours ago, tth2 said:

5 hours ago, Timely said:

I had a Young Allies #4 that was a 7.5 that got pressed to a 9.2. I bought it as a 9.2 and sold it to a dealer as a 9.2. He pressed it and it came back a 9.4.

Double, triple and quadruple pressings happen all day, every day.

Many pressers press a book twice when the 1st press does not get them their desired results.

Man I love this hobby! 

[Mr. Lady Luck]

5 hours ago, Timely said:

I had a Young Allies #4 that was a 7.5 that got pressed to a 9.2. I bought it as a 9.2 and sold it to a dealer as a 9.2. He pressed it and it came back a 9.4.

Double, triple and quadruple pressings happen all day, every day.

Many pressers press a book twice when the 1st press does not get them their desired results.

Can you press it again for a 10.0 or a 10.1?

[lou_fine]

3 hours ago, tth2 said:

5 hours ago, Timely said:

I had a Young Allies #4 that was a 7.5 that got pressed to a 9.2. I bought it as a 9.2 and sold it to a dealer as a 9.2. He pressed it and it came back a 9.4.

Double, triple and quadruple pressings happen all day, every day.

Many pressers press a book twice when the 1st press does not get them their desired results.

Man I love this hobby! 

Now, there's the Tim that we all here on the boards know so well and love so much.    

Edited September 5, 2019 by lou_fine

[buttock]

1 hour ago, october said:

That's fair, but this time it feels a bit different, at least in some genres. 

Specific to my tastes (and Robotman's): most of pre-code horror took 60 years to go from a dime to $300, then about 5 years to go from $300 to $1000-$10,000. That's a big jump in real dollar terms in a short amount of time. It's taken a lot of us by surprise and left some butthurt and broken dreams in its wake. 

The PCH market is stupid.  I sold most of mine and you can see that prices are already coming back to earth for a lot of stuff.  There is no discretion about what is or is not a good cover, everyone wants to make any sordid image on par with BC 50 or WM 4/5, and dumb buyers eat it up.  For true HG stuff, it's not a bad place to be, but when low grade common issues are $1K and up its time to sell.  

[fifties]

1 hour ago, Robot Man said:

It’s not just comics, it’s everything. I remember 50 cents a gallon gas, A new Mustang for $2500 and a nice 2 bedroom apartment by the beach for $150 a month. I was making $2 or $3 an hour. It’s all relative. I believe a lot of “rich folks” are just as broke as the rest of us just at a higher level.

True comics have gone up in price on a slow and steady pace as long as I have been collecting. But they seem to be going up much faster than most other things.  A high price paid today seems to be a steal a few months later. I attribute it to flippers trying to make a fast buck. Sadly, the thrill of making a quick profit seems to far out weigh the enjoyment of the book it’s self. 

A lot of the fun if this hobby has sadly left me...

I remember 24.9 cent a gallon gas/pack of cigarettes, and I bought my wife a new Ford Pinto in '72 for $1893. 

I'm afraid that when CGC and slabbing came into being, it changed the hobby.  All of a sudden numbers to designate grades, and how can you enjoy a book, who's primary purpose in life is to be read, when it's entombed in plastic?  No, that then made them "investment" vehicles, and my issue has been that it's caused ridiculous price increases in that they have to buy that VG copy at any price so they can get it pressed, slabbed, and make bank.  Like I said earlier, disgusting.  But that's now the way it is. 

My many hundreds of raw PCH and crime books make enjoyable reading during the evenings, and will be passed on to my son, who has vowed to keep them.  That way they won't be making any "census", and won't get into the hands of sharks.

[lou_fine]

22 hours ago, Mmehdy said:

On 9/4/2019 at 12:58 AM, Cat-Man_America said:

As a high grade GA collector I can tell you this issue that has been bantered around in other threads.  It's one of several reasons I rarely buy newer label CGC graded books.  

 

Good point on the "older" graded books but now you have to compete with the Flippers and Pressers for those which can be upgraded as well.

There's only one big problem with your strategy here........you would not be able to buy very much since there's hardly any old label books left out there anymore.  

For example, just take a look at the current CC Event Auction that is due to close next week.  If we simply look at the first letter in the alphabet, namely the A's only, we have over 8 pages or more than 200 comic books listed there.  Yet, there is one and only one single old label GA book (i.e. less than 0.5% of the total "A" books) in that entire grouping there:

Even though this is already the single highest graded copy at the top of the population census, any bets that if it is snagged by either a dealer or a CGC generation speculator they will still not be satisfied and seek to "maximize" or squeeze even more potential out of the book.  If so, my second bet is that the cream designation will also be gone since CGC was apparently much tougher on PQ when they first started. 

It seems the thinking in the current marketplace would most likely be:  Why be satified with just having the highest graded copy of a book when you have have the new and improved "super" highest graded copy and then have the buyers beating down your door to throw even bigger wads of money at your feet?  

It would be so much nicer if books like these were brought by collectors who appreciate them for what they are and just keep them in these original old label slabs.   

[MrBedrock]

12 hours ago, tth2 said:

 

Like pro athlete salaries, the amounts always seem to get more and more unsustainable, and then they go even higher and the prices that seemed crazy yesterday quickly look like a bargain.

My conclusion is that pro athletes are driving the back issue comic boom.

[MrBedrock]

1 hour ago, lou_fine said:

There's only one big problem with your strategy here........you would not be able to buy very much since there's hardly any old label books left out there anymore.  

For example, just take a look at the current CC Event Auction that is due to close next week.  If we simply look at the first letter in the alphabet, namely the A's only, we have over 8 pages or more than 200 comic books listed there.  Yet, there is one and only one single old label GA book (i.e. less than 0.5% of the total "A" books) in that entire grouping there:

Even though this is already the single highest graded copy at the top of the population census, any bets that if it is snagged by either a dealer or a CGC generation speculator they will still not be satisfied and seek to "maximize" or squeeze even more potential out of the book.  If so, my second bet is that the cream designation will also be gone since CGC was apparently much tougher on PQ when they first started. 

It seems the thinking in the current marketplace would most likely be:  Why be satified with just having the highest graded copy of a book when you have have the new and improved "super" highest graded copy and then have the buyers beating down your door to throw even bigger wads of money at your feet?  

It would be so much nicer if books like these were brought by collectors who appreciate them for what they are and just keep them in these original old label slabs.   

If I won it I would at the very least have it reholdered. The old labels may represent purity to you but to me they are a warning of the toxic pool of rotting plastic waiting to damage the book.

Edited September 5, 2019 by MrBedrock

[N e r V]

1 hour ago, lou_fine said:

There's only one big problem with your strategy here........you would not be able to buy very much since there's hardly any old label books left out there anymore.  

For example, just take a look at the current CC Event Auction that is due to close next week.  If we simply look at the first letter in the alphabet, namely the A's only, we have over 8 pages or more than 200 comic books listed there.  Yet, there is one and only one single old label GA book (i.e. less than 0.5% of the total "A" books) in that entire grouping there:

Even though this is already the single highest graded copy at the top of the population census, any bets that if it is snagged by either a dealer or a CGC generation speculator they will still not be satisfied and seek to "maximize" or squeeze even more potential out of the book.  If so, my second bet is that the cream designation will also be gone since CGC was apparently much tougher on PQ when they first started. 

It seems the thinking in the current marketplace would most likely be:  Why be satified with just having the highest graded copy of a book when you have have the new and improved "super" highest graded copy and then have the buyers beating down your door to throw even bigger wads of money at your feet?  

It would be so much nicer if books like these were brought by collectors who appreciate them for what they are and just keep them in these original old label slabs.   

 

1 minute ago, MrBedrock said:

If I won it I would have it reholdered. The old labels may represent purity to you but to me they are a warning of the toxic pool of rotting plastic waiting to damage the book.

Forget that I’d just resubmit it and take the bump up to 9.0 with OW/W pages...

Early CGC graders were tougher not like these snowflakes today...

[N e r V]

Not sure what rotting plastic smells like either...

 

[skybolt]

18 hours ago, thunsicker said:

I won't spend more than 5% of my yearly income on a hobby.  So the 10k a year you mention on the low end would be if I made $200k/year.  The middle range you gave would be what I could consider spending if I made half a million a year and the upper range would be if I made two million.  So either people are 'investing' in comics or people are making a whole heck of a lot more than I think they are.  My guess is the pool who would spend 25k a year is much smaller than you would think.

There are a lot of collectors like myself who at one point in their collecting careers would easily spend 30-50% of their annual incomes on comic books (not to mention existing savings). This is obviously not sustainable, but I did that from 2003 until 2011, when real life hit me in the face (house, marriage, kids). During those 8 years I was able to compete with collectors making 5 to 6 times my salary because I was at a stage in my life where other expenses were super low. I think these type of flash in the pan type collectors will always be present in our hobby, driving up prices along with the deep pocketed individuals.

[lou_fine]

55 minutes ago, MrBedrock said:

2 hours ago, lou_fine said:

There's only one big problem with your strategy here........you would not be able to buy very much since there's hardly any old label books left out there anymore.  

For example, just take a look at the current CC Event Auction that is due to close next week.  If we simply look at the first letter in the alphabet, namely the A's only, we have over 8 pages or more than 200 comic books listed there.  Yet, there is one and only one single old label GA book (i.e. less than 0.5% of the total "A" books) in that entire grouping there:

Even though this is already the single highest graded copy at the top of the population census, any bets that if it is snagged by either a dealer or a CGC generation speculator they will still not be satisfied and seek to "maximize" or squeeze even more potential out of the book.  If so, my second bet is that the cream designation will also be gone since CGC was apparently much tougher on PQ when they first started. 

It seems the thinking in the current marketplace would most likely be:  Why be satified with just having the highest graded copy of a book when you have have the new and improved "super" highest graded copy and then have the buyers beating down your door to throw even bigger wads of money at your feet?  

It would be so much nicer if books like these were brought by collectors who appreciate them for what they are and just keep them in these original old label slabs.   

If I won it I would at the very least have it reholdered. The old labels may represent purity to you but to me they are a warning of the toxic pool of rotting plastic waiting to damage the book.

Oh crappers...........now you tell me!!!  

From the CGC serial number, it looks like the book was graded back in April of 2000.  So, if there's rotting smelly toxic waste   in there after only a mere short 20 years, what the heck is happening to my BA books that I cherry picked off the shelves of the LCS 45 long years ago and still rotting away in those now sticky yellowing poly bags of decades gone by?    

[PopKulture]

4 hours ago, lou_fine said:

Even though this is already the single highest graded copy at the top of the population census, any bets that if it is snagged by either a dealer or a CGC generation speculator they will still not be satisfied and seek to "maximize" or squeeze even more potential out of the book.  If so, my second bet is that the cream designation will also be gone since CGC was apparently much tougher on PQ when they first started. 

It will be interesting if that turns out to be the case and we can revisit this prophecy in short order.  

I don't doubt you are correct. 

[Qua-Brot]

I'll throw my 2 cents into this pool of resentment and defeat . . . yes, them there is fightin words!

First, any company like CGC that relies on public good will and trust in their ability to try to be as objective as possible (even in an area like grading that is indefinite and is more of an art than a science) it is absolute suicide for them to change their standards over the years, especially if it is tied to their other revenue streams. If this was true and were to get out into the general public they would be done in seconds. There is at least one other company that would take over in that second, and maybe another that could step up. The theorizing that they shill for themselves or change things drastically is tantamount to conspiracy theorizing (No, I do not own stock in the company or am I a big supporter - this is just basic common sense in business).

Second, the prices of comics are going up because of supply and DEMAND. It isn't the dealers or flippers or CGC who are driving up prices (though to be fair, CGC and 3rd party graders are making it easier to create tiers - i.e. grades - that are in more demand than other tiers, which does drive demand as supply seems to be low in certain tiers/grades). Dealers, Flippers, CGC et al, bag and board manufacturers, Comic box manufacturers, Con holders, etc. are merely cashing in on the DEMAND that exists for these old pieces of paper. I agree with whoever said above that this demand is being driven by the popularity of the movies and will last at least 25 to 30 years - probably 50 to 60 in actuality (figure the kids of 10 today who are loving the movies will grow to become collectors in some manner - hit their prime nostalgia/money making period in their late 30s to 40s, and keep going for another 25 to 30 years). 

There will be ups and downs. Markets are fickle, what is popular is fickle, and trends and tastes change. Who knows, there may be a run on oddball funny animal books. Or Westerns might come back. But once PCH became popular the prices were going to go up. I'm sure there are some beautiful books hiding away in collections that won't see the light of day for another 10 years or so, and maybe the popularity will have cooled off. Maybe not. But figure how popular Horror was in the 70s - Creepy and Eerie and all those Monster mags it makes sense those who grew up on it would discover the previous era of Horror - the question is will they discover Horror Pulps? But anyway, I digress. You may not personally understand the desire to own a book, or to pay so much for it - but that is the beauty of a free market - you don't have to understand it! Someone (actually, usually a few someones) is willing to pay that much for it and there you have the value. Works for any commodity - I don't get gold laminated marble bathrooms, but people seem to love them and pay a lot for them. 

Finally, the amount people spend on books relative to their income varies: There are some who are addicted and just spend. There are some who budget well and stick to their budget - if they make a lot they spend a lot, if not they don't. There are those who are retired and can spend their savings as they want. It's hard to figure out based on income how much people will spend. Look at how much people spend on a boat, or a motorcycle, or their TV or clothes or whatever. Some don't have those expenses and instead put it into comics. No boat, that's 20K. No Motorcycle, 15K? No wife - unlimited funds (no woman no cry). 

My point is that if you try to ascribe motivation by bad actors to such a large and open market you are being silly. Might as well blame the Jews for higher comic book prices (and you would be right - Siegel, Schuster, Kane, Lee, Simon, Kirby, Cole, Feldstein, Kurtzman, all Jews and had their hands in most of the most expensive books out there - and full disclosure - I am a Jew). It is frustrating when prices rise above what you can afford. person_without_enough_empathy and moan all you want, but don't start looking for the boogey man. The only thing to blame is supply and demand in a free market (and comic books are one of the free-est markets around - no regulations, we all pay what we want and have no reason beyond our own strange desires to buy these four color horrors, and no one is coerced to sell at any price). 

Thanks for reading my screed. I hope I didn't really insult anyone, not my intention, just my own frustration in general about lack of understanding about basic economics (don't even get me started on the world at large and contemporary politics . . .)

 

[lou_fine]

On 9/4/2019 at 5:37 AM, entalmighty1 said:

On 9/4/2019 at 4:02 AM, Mr. Lady Luck said:

I am definitely noticing this trend and I do not like it. I've become skeptical of every golden age 9.6 and 9.8 I see these days.

The more new GA books I see slabbed, the more apparent it is that they're giving a LOT of these books a friendly wink of a bump.  

 

On 9/4/2019 at 10:48 AM, MrBedrock said:

On 9/4/2019 at 9:58 AM, clarkkentdds said:

Last decade's 9.4 is yesterday's 9.6 and today's 9.8. And I don't think it has anything to do with CGC's lax grading. As collectors,  investing in having your books pressed must yield dividends for this business model to work.

Can you show us some examples?

Richard;

I guess this book doesn't actually belong here since it hasn't made it anywhere close to a CGC 9.8 graded level yet.  Then again, I giess we should never say never as there's still lots of time left to play before the game is over.  I guess it probably belongs more appropriately in your "Why So Many CGC 6.0's " thread which you started since it blew right past this condition grade like there was no tomorrow.  

I think we all remember this now classic Edgar Church Mile High book which started life out as a CGC 4.0 graded copy:

 

and then graduated to become a CGC 7.5 graded copy:

 

before finally acheiving its current CGC 9.0 graded honors, all while residing in a Blue Universal unrestored slab:

 

Not only did we learn all about undisclosed pressing and what had been happening behind the scene at the time from this book amongst many others, but we also learned for the first time that "disassembly and reassembly of a comic book in and of itself does not constitute restoration" and this was how a book could go from a grade of 4.0 right up to a grade of 9.0.    Why, how absolutely silly of the hobby place to have thought otherwise for all those long decades before CGC finally opened our eyes to thankfully let us see the light at long last.      

I also noticed that Heritage must be making more money as they are apparently putting stronger and stronger light bulbs in their buildings as the years go by.  

Edited September 6, 2019 by lou_fine

[thunsicker]

2 hours ago, Qua-Brot said:

I'll throw my 2 cents into this pool of resentment and defeat . . . yes, them there is fightin words!

First, any company like CGC that relies on public good will and trust in their ability to try to be as objective as possible (even in an area like grading that is indefinite and is more of an art than a science) it is absolute suicide for them to change their standards over the years, especially if it is tied to their other revenue streams. If this was true and were to get out into the general public they would be done in seconds. There is at least one other company that would take over in that second, and maybe another that could step up. The theorizing that they shill for themselves or change things drastically is tantamount to conspiracy theorizing (No, I do not own stock in the company or am I a big supporter - this is just basic common sense in business).

Second, the prices of comics are going up because of supply and DEMAND. It isn't the dealers or flippers or CGC who are driving up prices (though to be fair, CGC and 3rd party graders are making it easier to create tiers - i.e. grades - that are in more demand than other tiers, which does drive demand as supply seems to be low in certain tiers/grades). Dealers, Flippers, CGC et al, bag and board manufacturers, Comic box manufacturers, Con holders, etc. are merely cashing in on the DEMAND that exists for these old pieces of paper. I agree with whoever said above that this demand is being driven by the popularity of the movies and will last at least 25 to 30 years - probably 50 to 60 in actuality (figure the kids of 10 today who are loving the movies will grow to become collectors in some manner - hit their prime nostalgia/money making period in their late 30s to 40s, and keep going for another 25 to 30 years). 

There will be ups and downs. Markets are fickle, what is popular is fickle, and trends and tastes change. Who knows, there may be a run on oddball funny animal books. Or Westerns might come back. But once PCH became popular the prices were going to go up. I'm sure there are some beautiful books hiding away in collections that won't see the light of day for another 10 years or so, and maybe the popularity will have cooled off. Maybe not. But figure how popular Horror was in the 70s - Creepy and Eerie and all those Monster mags it makes sense those who grew up on it would discover the previous era of Horror - the question is will they discover Horror Pulps? But anyway, I digress. You may not personally understand the desire to own a book, or to pay so much for it - but that is the beauty of a free market - you don't have to understand it! Someone (actually, usually a few someones) is willing to pay that much for it and there you have the value. Works for any commodity - I don't get gold laminated marble bathrooms, but people seem to love them and pay a lot for them. 

Finally, the amount people spend on books relative to their income varies: There are some who are addicted and just spend. There are some who budget well and stick to their budget - if they make a lot they spend a lot, if not they don't. There are those who are retired and can spend their savings as they want. It's hard to figure out based on income how much people will spend. Look at how much people spend on a boat, or a motorcycle, or their TV or clothes or whatever. Some don't have those expenses and instead put it into comics. No boat, that's 20K. No Motorcycle, 15K? No wife - unlimited funds (no woman no cry). 

My point is that if you try to ascribe motivation by bad actors to such a large and open market you are being silly. Might as well blame the Jews for higher comic book prices (and you would be right - Siegel, Schuster, Kane, Lee, Simon, Kirby, Cole, Feldstein, Kurtzman, all Jews and had their hands in most of the most expensive books out there - and full disclosure - I am a Jew). It is frustrating when prices rise above what you can afford. person_without_enough_empathy and moan all you want, but don't start looking for the boogey man. The only thing to blame is supply and demand in a free market (and comic books are one of the free-est markets around - no regulations, we all pay what we want and have no reason beyond our own strange desires to buy these four color horrors, and no one is coerced to sell at any price). 

Thanks for reading my screed. I hope I didn't really insult anyone, not my intention, just my own frustration in general about lack of understanding about basic economics (don't even get me started on the world at large and contemporary politics . . .)

 

Supply and demand is the most basic economics.  It is certainly the reason comics are going up in price.  It’s the reason that Alphabet and Apple stock is worth what it is.  It’s the reason commodities are priced the way they are.  It’s the reason your car cost what it did and eating out costs what it does.  It’s also the reason internet stocks were priced what they were in the late 90’s houses were priced the way they were in the early and mid 2000’s and tulip bulbs were worth what they were in the 1630’s.  I’m not saying we’re in a bubble, but to say supply and demand has brought prices to where they are doesn’t tell us if these price increases will continue, prices will stagnate, or prices will fall.

[N e r V]

Before anyone else piles on CGC too much they need to understand that grading standards in comics has been to some degree in flux for decades now with changes occurring over the years in how the general collector feels what’s most important or less important with the defects involved in any book. Stains for example have varied over the years in terms of how much of a grade hit they should take. Paper quality these days has become more important as the years go on probably because people relate it to how much longer the item has aged or getting closer to a possible end of life period for a book. Restoration views have changed a lot up and down depending on the year or books involved. The whole grading scale wasn’t on a 10 point scale originally but also we had a 100 point at one time and a no point scale in the beginning of collecting with grading getting more technical as the years went on.

So yeah, collectors should hope for a degree of stability with CGC’s standards but I think a little give is in order too since the market around them has changed since they started. 

 

 

Edited September 6, 2019 by N e r V

[batman_fan]

Does anyone offset the CO2 that goes into slabbing their books by planting trees?

[MrBedrock]

1 hour ago, lou_fine said:

 

Richard;

I guess this book doesn't actually belong here since it hasn't made it anywhere close to a CGC 9.8 graded level yet.  Then again, I giess we should never say never as there's still lots of time left to play before the game is over.  I guess it probably belongs more appropriately in your "Why So Many CGC 6.0's " thread which you started since it blew right past this condition grade like there was no tomorrow.  

I think we all remember this now classic Edgar Church Mile High book which started life out as a CGC 4.0 graded copy:

 

and then graduated to become a CGC 7.5 graded copy:

 

before finally acheiving its current CGC 9.0 graded honors, all while residing in a Blue Universal unrestored slab:

 

Not only did we learn all about undisclosed pressing and what had been happening behind the scene at the time from this book amongst many others, but we also learned for the first time that "disassembly and reassembly of a comic book in and of itself does not constitute restoration" and this was how a book could go from a grade of 4.0 right up to a grade of 9.0.    Why, how absolutely silly of the hobby place to have thought otherwise for all those long decades before CGC finally opened our eyes to thankfully let us see the light at long last.      

I also noticed that Heritage must be making more money as they are apparently putting stronger and stronger light bulbs in their buildings as the years go by.  

Thanks for that one. I have seen it before and it is extreme. But the "explosion" of 9.6s becoming 9.8s....not sure if that is supported by any demonstrable data.