GA 9.4 to 9.6 to 9.8... Observing a trend 3 3

[fifties]

43 minutes ago, tth2 said:

Or read a beater copy or read a reprint.

Unless it's critically important to be able to read that particular copy for some reason.

Ahh, my old Marne Division buddy.  Yes my friend, it IS INDEED critically important to be able to read any particular copy of any book.  Why, you ask?  Well, when I relax in the evening at my desk with a drink, pull out my book holder and delve into a succession of my pre code horror or crime comics, with early '50's music playing from my PC, I'm in a zone.  It's an experience.  I don't buy beaters, nor upper grade books, but rather  mainly in the G to VG range, the condition they were largely in back then, after they had been read, passed around, traded, etc.   If you've never been there, I can't put it into words...  

[N e r V]

I think expecting to be able to read ANY comic at a affordable price is neither reasonable or realistic.

I can see it would be nice to be able to do so but so would having anything you wanted available to you at all times with little or no cost.

Either way I’m pretty sure if CGC never happened there would still be countless books that wouldn’t be affordable to the average person today.

Just sayin’...

 

[Mmehdy]

14 hours ago, RockMyAmadeus said:

That's true of many things. I was in a very real position, last year, to buy a Detective Comics #27 for the very first time in my life.

Unfortunately, the barrier to entry was more than I could spend. I *could* have done it...but it would have wiped me out financially. Had that money come 10 years ago, I wouldn't have had a problem. For the 30 years I have been involved in comics, most everything I want that was far out of my reach in 1989 has kept pace, and still remains as far out of my reach today, if not farther. Detective #168? Could have bought a G/VG copy in 2009 for $600 at Carbo's Big Apple show at the Penn. Couldn't really afford it. Now? That book is $10,000. Still can't really afford it. 

Slabbing didn't create this market. Slabbing only facilitated the demand that was already there, giving assurance for buyers to be willing to spend ever higher prices, because they know what they are buying. Slabbing didn't "remove books from the affordable tier", because that's entirely relative to each individual. Pre-Robin 'Tecs have never, ever been in the "affordable tier" for me, long before slabbing existed. Neither have ECs. And I would love to own a complete collection of both.

Barring some unforeseen fortune coming my way, that's never going to happen for me. And that's always been true. But I'm grateful for what I have, and grateful for the books I could buy, and have acquired...many of which I couldn't replace if I had to. For everyone who complains about no longer being able to afford these things, there are many, many people who can afford far, far less. 

I notice your signature: "you can't read slabbed books." But you can...you simply open the slab.

Slabbing does create increased  price and demand based upon the color of the label, cgc census, and ego of the buyer. Period. Especially as the price increases and the gap in value between restored and non-restored widens . It is a fact of life now, we have to live with it. Do I like it...yes and no....I like the feel that I have lost the ability to flip thru, feel and smell true GA, but I like the safety of knowing that I am getting a book which is unrestored. The problem lies in the very definition of "unrestored or amount of restoration" as it seem to be a ever-changing and evolving standard. Nobody in their right mind can deny pressing a comic book is  NOT an act of restoration or improvement upon the condition as it was on the newsstand, yet CGC turns a blind eye to this and has created even an in between blue  label of conserved which is an extreme way to say this restoration was done right or whatever. This reality can only get worse with new ways to "cheat" the system for the purposes of greed.

 As a true comic book collector, I ask each and everyone of you to look back to the early days of collecting and truth and honor in which 99% of the collecting community would make superman proud..truth, justice, and the American way. If we fast forward from the early 70's to today we do have some very good safeguards rendered by the CGC and this very board which did not exist 40 years ago...but this is being attacked by flippers, crooks, and investors who don't give a damm about the comic book, its a widget to them. The only thing we can do now is "do the right thing" and not feed into the greed, and play fair, a 7.0 is a 7.0 not a pancake 9.0. because the CGC looks the other way. Do not let the flippers and wall street  don't give rats ... investors  dictate WHO YOU ARE.

Edited September 7, 2019 by Mmehdy

[lou_fine]

On 9/5/2019 at 3:18 PM, PopKulture said:

On 9/5/2019 at 10:39 AM, lou_fine said:

Even though this is already the single highest graded copy at the top of the population census, any bets that if it is snagged by either a dealer or a CGC generation speculator they will still not be satisfied and seek to "maximize" or squeeze even more potential out of the book.  If so, my second bet is that the cream designation will also be gone since CGC was apparently much tougher on PQ when they first started. 

It will be interesting if that turns out to be the case and we can revisit this prophecy in short order.  

I don't doubt you are correct. 

Well, if you look back even at recent times, history has clearly shown us that this tends to be a very common occurrence.  

Since I tend to follow the early Fox books, I still remember the CC auction a couple of years ago for this book here:

Similar to the Air Fighters book which we were talking about, this copy of Mystery Men 11 was also graded back in the early to mid part of 2000 if I remember correctly.  Like the Air Fighters book, it was also already the highest graded copy at the time after almost 20 years of grading had passed and managed to sell for somewhere in the mid to high $3K price range  Well okay, actually tied with the highly acclaimed Allentown pedigree copy which also came in at a grade of CGC 9.0.  Yet, even though it was already sitting atop the CGC census, within only a month's time or was it even less, we saw the following copy being listed on another dealer's (WW ) website:

I guess after sitting in that old slab with what Richard described as a toxic pool of waste   for almost 20 years, I imagine it must have washed away all of the cream and left the book with the rather nicer off-whitw pages.   Like all of the skads of Jon Berk books that had been brought from the CC Auction and then relisted in their higher grade slabs on Ritter's WorldWide website at substantially higher prices a few short weeks later, the MM 11 was no exception since it was listed for somewhere in the low to mid $7K price range.  I guess that buyers often prefer to pay higher prices for their books since I was surprised at how many of them were already listed as Sale Pending almost right off the bat.    Not sure about the MM 11 in the end, although I did eventually see it listed on the Heritage site last year where I was able to snag this photo from.

So, like you said with these old label books, I guess we will wait to see what happens with these kinds of books, but history often tends to rinse and repeat itself.    

[MrBedrock]

On 9/6/2019 at 4:20 PM, sfcityduck said:

On 9/6/2019 at 3:39 PM, MrBedrock said:

Some of you sound like you are convinced that the only things of value in this hobby are the plastic slabs that surround the comics.

Oh, and please check out www.bedrockcity.com - where all of our slabbed comics are priced at the same price as we would sell them raw. Hell I will crack them out and sell you the empty case if you would like to buy them.

Does this mean you'll throw in a free slabbing for books you sell raw?  

I certainly will. All you would be responsible for is CGC's cost for their service.

[RockMyAmadeus]

11 hours ago, Mmehdy said:

Slabbing does create increased  price and demand based upon the color of the label, cgc census, and ego of the buyer. Period.

This discussion isn't about the color of the label, CGC census, or ego of the buyer. It is about the difference in price between slabbed books and raw books "in the same grade."

Further to that point...if it was really true that there is a market-wide price gap between slabbed books and raw books "in the same grade", it would be a piece of cake...as some have said they've done anecdotally...to take advantage of the arbitrage.

And it IS done...here and there. Many of the people reading this have taken advantage of that very thing, including me...but that is very, very rare...perhaps possible in 1 out of 100 situations, perhaps less....and certainly not "the norm." The reason there are price differences between slabs and raw books "in the same grade" is because 90% of the time...and probably a lot more...those raw books "in the same grade"....aren't. 

And that's the bottom line.

11 hours ago, Mmehdy said:

Especially as the price increases and the gap in value between restored and non-restored widens .

This discussion isn't about the gap between restored and non-restored books. That's a very worthwhile, but completely separate, discussion.

[MasterChief]

On 9/4/2019 at 10:46 AM, Gotham Kid said:

My guess is there were maybe 1 or 2 Superman books that recently also made 9.8 grade ... Very upsetting perhaps when you were single highest graded owner.

I've been MIA from the boards for a couple years, since before the transition, so I may have missed something. But there are cases of old and second-generation labeled GA books transitioning from 9.4-->9.6-->9.8. That said, it's been some time since I've done any in-depth research on the subject, particularly when it comes to new labels, so if anyone has any leads shoot me a PM and I'll be happy to take a look.

[MasterChief]

On 9/3/2019 at 9:58 PM, Cat-Man_America said:

On 9/3/2019 at 5:27 PM, clarkkentdds said:

Has anyone noticed the increasing amount of 9.8 GA books being churned out of the CGC machine lately? Frankly it’s  an obvious trend. 9.4s that were pressed 5-10 years ago are getting “pressed” again and magically becoming 9.8s. 

Paying a premium for (even rare) single highest graded GA is a sure way to lose money... I’m finally seeing collectors catch on to this. 

Lots of newly minted 9.8s these days... 

 

As a high grade GA collector I can tell you this issue that has been bantered around in other threads.  It's one of several reasons I rarely buy newer label CGC graded books.

While it may be relatively safe to apply the theory to old-label Silver and Bronze age books, the data suggests the institutionalization of manipulation began predominantly with GA books in 2002. And if memory serves, the second-generation label debuted in July of 2003 or thereabouts. Hence the potential for doctored books to be in old label slabs is a legitimate concern. Consequently, for like-minded GA collectors who dislikes the practice, the application of pre-acquisition homework applies.

[MasterChief]

On 9/5/2019 at 5:23 PM, lou_fine said:

I think we all remember this now classic Edgar Church Mile High book which started life out as a CGC 4.0 graded copy:

 

and then graduated to become a CGC 7.5 graded copy:

 

before finally acheiving its current CGC 9.0 graded honors, all while residing in a Blue Universal unrestored slab:

 

Not only did we learn all about undisclosed pressing and what had been happening behind the scene at the time from this book amongst many others, but we also learned for the first time that "disassembly and reassembly of a comic book in and of itself does not constitute restoration" and this was how a book could go from a grade of 4.0 right up to a grade of 9.0.    Why, how absolutely silly of the hobby place to have thought otherwise for all those long decades before CGC finally opened our eyes to thankfully let us see the light at long last.      

I also noticed that Heritage must be making more money as they are apparently putting stronger and stronger light bulbs in their buildings as the years go by.  

The Boy Comics #17 transformation is an interesting study. The controversy it created was commensurate to that of the Mouse that Roared. But what was not understood at the time regarding its exposure is the fact that BC#17 was a member of a submission group that included nine other Church books. Books that were all acquired in late 2002, treated and recertified six-months later, and then liquidated a couple months thereafter at the same venue.

 

Edited September 8, 2019 by MasterChief

[MasterChief]

By the way... For those interested in such things, here's the second thread regarding the BC#17 alteration. IIRC the first thread was locked and then deleted.

 

 

 

[sagii]

1 hour ago, MasterChief said:

By the way... For those interested in such things, here's the second thread regarding the BC#17 alteration. IIRC the first thread was locked and then deleted.

 

 

 

Good read., time capsule from waaay before I cane onboard. 

Thanks for posting.

[Mr. Lady Luck]

Hypothetical:

I own a Universal 8.0 copy of Boy Comics #17 with white pages. It has never been pressed or cleaned.

Someone else owns a Universal 9.0 copy of Boy Comics with white pages (but the book was originally a 4.0 before pressings).

Who owns the highest graded book?

Which copy would you rather have?

[GreatCaesarsGhost]

7 minutes ago, Mr. Lady Luck said:

Hypothetical:

I own a Universal 8.0 copy of Boy Comics #17 with white pages. It has never been pressed or cleaned.

Someone else owns a Universal 9.0 copy of Boy Comics with white pages (but the book was originally a 4.0 before pressings).

Who owns the highest graded book?

Which copy would you rather have?

The 9.0 should have an asterisk, so the 8,0

[comicwiz]

16 minutes ago, Mr. Lady Luck said:

Hypothetical:

I own a Universal 8.0 copy of Boy Comics #17 with white pages. It has never been pressed or cleaned.

Someone else owns a Universal 9.0 copy of Boy Comics with white pages (but the book was originally a 4.0 before pressings).

Who owns the highest graded book?

Which copy would you rather have?

The analogy, while crude, is that I much prefer the athlete that performs clean. Strip the award or medal from the ones caught doing it dirty (i.e. PED's). While the analogy is crude, the perception issues should be the same. This should have never turned into a hobby where everyone gets a participation trophy as long as people are willing to pay for it.

[tth2]

I used the PED analogy back when there still used to be a controversy over pressing, and got pilloried for it.

The battle has been long over, the bad guys won. 

[lou_fine]

9 hours ago, MasterChief said:

IIRC the first thread was locked and then deleted.

Masterchief;

Locked was not good enough, but they also had to go and delete the entire thread like it never even existed.  

I hope you aren't referring to the Manufactued Gold thread because that was a truly all-time classic thread in the sense of being a real eye opener which ended up providing us for the first time with an behind the scenes look at some of the shall we say "finer" points of CGC's undisclosed grading standards.  

That thread is such a valuable learning tool that it should probably be pinned to the top of all these boards here so that new members coming here can have a handy reference to learn about the finer intricacies of grading and how to maximize the value of their collection.  

 

Edited September 8, 2019 by lou_fine

[Mmehdy]

9 hours ago, MasterChief said:

The Boy Comics #17 transformation is an interesting study. The controversy it created was commensurate to that of the Mouse that Roared. But what was not understood at the time regarding its exposure is the fact that BC#17 was a member of a submission group that included nine other Church books. Books that were all acquired in late 2002, treated and recertified six-months later, and then liquidated a couple months thereafter at the same venue.

 

wow...

[lou_fine]

22 minutes ago, Mmehdy said:

10 hours ago, MasterChief said:

The Boy Comics #17 transformation is an interesting study. The controversy it created was commensurate to that of the Mouse that Roared. But what was not understood at the time regarding its exposure is the fact that BC#17 was a member of a submission group that included nine other Church books. Books that were all acquired in late 2002, treated and recertified six-months later, and then liquidated a couple months thereafter at the same venue.

 

wow...

Mitch;

Where was you in 2005 when this whole "opening of the kimono" was being revealed to us for the first time by boardies like Masterchief, Redhook, and even Danny Boy himself?  

A lot of fun and games or shall we say angst on the part of most board members here when their eyes were opened for the first time.  Definitely not a case of proactive explanation fo changes to what was then thought to be previously long held established grading standards and restoration definitions within the hobby place, especially since it came like 5 years after CGC first opened their doors for business.    

If I remember correctly, the above chart is nothing more than a mere fraction of what ended up being revealed in that particular thread.  

Edited September 8, 2019 by lou_fine

[bluechip]

On 9/5/2019 at 8:23 PM, lou_fine said:

 

Richard;

I guess this book doesn't actually belong here since it hasn't made it anywhere close to a CGC 9.8 graded level yet.  Then again, I giess we should never say never as there's still lots of time left to play before the game is over.  I guess it probably belongs more appropriately in your "Why So Many CGC 6.0's " thread which you started since it blew right past this condition grade like there was no tomorrow.  

I think we all remember this now classic Edgar Church Mile High book which started life out as a CGC 4.0 graded copy:

 

and then graduated to become a CGC 7.5 graded copy:

 

before finally acheiving its current CGC 9.0 graded honors, all while residing in a Blue Universal unrestored slab:

 

Not only did we learn all about undisclosed pressing and what had been happening behind the scene at the time from this book amongst many others, but we also learned for the first time that "disassembly and reassembly of a comic book in and of itself does not constitute restoration" and this was how a book could go from a grade of 4.0 right up to a grade of 9.0.    Why, how absolutely silly of the hobby place to have thought otherwise for all those long decades before CGC finally opened our eyes to thankfully let us see the light at long last.      

I also noticed that Heritage must be making more money as they are apparently putting stronger and stronger light bulbs in their buildings as the years go by.  

If I had been interested in that issue and seen all those as separate books presented side by side at somebody's booth, I would have gone for the 4.0 every time, shaking my head amusedly, every time, that people would pay many multiples for either of the higher graded copies despite their being virtually identical.  (of course in the case of these three they are literally identical)

[lou_fine]

29 minutes ago, bluechip said:

If I had been interested in that issue and seen all those as separate books presented side by side at somebody's booth, I would have gone for the 4.0 every time, shaking my head amusedly, every time, that people would pay many multiples for either of the higher graded copies despite their being virtually identical.  (of course in the case of these three they are literally identical)

Well, if you was really really interested in that particular issue there, you could have invested your hard earned money for 12 more years and then simply fork over $16 more in 2014 for this particular copy of Boy Comics here:

Also a CGC 9.0 graded copy, but doesn't have the same infamous history as the Church copy.  I guess it would qualify now as one of the newly minted pedigrees since it was denoted as coming from the Collection of Harold Curtis when it first sold on Heritage for the grand sum of $334.60 back in 2006.  It was then resold on Heritage in 2014 (exact same CGC serial number) for the much higher amount of $382.40 (boy, talk about inflation here ) when it was denoted as coming from the Dino Mauricio Golden Age Classic Cover Collection.  

Any bets the next time out, it'll be rebranded as a Harold Curtis pedigree copy in one of those newly minted black and white label slabs and will go for a whole lot more money.    

Edited September 8, 2019 by lou_fine