Most Important / Impactful Living Artist 1 1

[Blastaar]

3 minutes ago, CartoonFanboy said:

Agreed about Image. Regarding Spawn however, I'm far more impressed by the fact that Erik Larsen has written and drawn all 245 issues in on the Savage Dragon. In my opinion, if Larsen crosses the 300 issue threshold with that title, it's a much greater accomplishment. 

The Pete Rose or Cal Ripken jr of comics. 

[PhilipB2k17]

10 hours ago, J.Sid said:

Somewhere between "absentee landlord" and what Dave Sim did.

He's been involved, if not responsible for story pretty much throughout. (and gotten full writing credit on numerous issues)
He's also inked/finished the majority of the pages, albeit digitally.  (don't know how many, but easily more than half)
...And he's done a lot of covers.

 

 

Reminds me of the old joke about a ham & egg breakfast. The Chicken was involved, but the pig was committed. 

[PhilipB2k17]

Did anyone watch the Rude Dude documentary (also on Amazon) about Steve Rude? 

[PhilipB2k17]

On 9/12/2019 at 1:10 PM, grapeape said:

Checkmate

Ware draws absolutely nothing like Crumb, though. Not in style, content, layout or even subject matter. 

 

[BCarter27]

41 minutes ago, PhilipB2k17 said:

Did anyone watch the Rude Dude documentary (also on Amazon) about Steve Rude? 

Yeah, I'm a fan of the Dude. Some great stuff in there. "He's classically trained!"

[ESeffinga]

I hope we aren't mistaking visual influence for the potential topic at hand here? I suppose some could be.
But influence can and often is far more than drawing in the style of. In fact, I hope people are thinking of influence as being greater than simply having visually identifiable imitators or markers.

For instance, Jack Kirby is a HUGE influence on Mike Mignola. Mike's art bares very little resemblance to Kirby. But that does not negate the influence Kirby had on Mike's work.
Influence can come in many guises. As an example of someone who has a very big influence as a living artist working today... Mignola's very early work has a very Jeff Jones and Wrightsonesqe quality to it. But those tell-tale signs shed away pretty early on. With the exception of the Kirby crackle, and occasionally something tech-like, there's not much Kirby left on the surface of Mike's work. That doesn't mean the influence of storytelling, of dynamics or world-building or ideas are not all still in there somewhere, filtered through Mike's sensibilities.

Beginning artists tend to wear that visual influence on their sleeves, and over time as they find their own voice, those trappings fall away. For the guys with distinctive visual and written voices, they are all but subsumed into what they become. And then years later someone else apes THEIR work, until they find their own voice (or not).

Crumb as influencer could simply be the way he tells stories (not draws them, but conceives them), the kind of personal tales he told, or the wry wit and or base topics that he favored. Their personal nature. Their reach. The desire to keep to very short anthology like comic, as a grouping of single pagers, etc. Doesn't mean Ware is telling those stories, but that they changed the inflections of how he told the stories he wanted to tell.

There could be a million and one influences, and we aren't going to "see" all of them. Just because we don't see it, doesn't mean it's not buried in there somewhere.
You'd have to ask Ware what KIND influence he was. Could have been as simple as he had never intended to draw comics until he saw the comics that Crumb did, and it made him think "Hey, I can do something like THAT!"
Even simply that kind of exposure can totally change a career. We don't get to decide how big of an influence someone has been on someone else (most of the time. I'm looking at you Hoffman), but  sometimes we can see it. Sometimes we can't. just because we don't doesn't negate the actual level of influence.

It's a great artist that can take an artform and make it totally their own distinctive unmistakable thing. It's a lot of work, and a whole lot of stealing bits and pieces, and putting in the hours and years, until no one can tell where it comes from anymore. Then it's theirs.
And then there are those rare artists that seem to spring up from out of nowhere, fully formed. Like James Jean, for instance.

 

 

 

 

Edited September 16, 2019 by ESeffinga

[PhilipB2k17]

17 minutes ago, ESeffinga said:

I hope we aren't mistaking visual influence for the potential topic at hand here? I suppose some could be.
But influence can and often is far more than drawing in the style of. In fact, I hope people are thinking of influence as being greater than simply having visually identifiable imitators or markers.

For instance, Jack Kirby is a HUGE influence on Mike Mignola. Mike's art bares very little resemblance to Kirby. But that does not negate the influence Kirby had on Mike's work.
Influence can come in many guises. As an example of someone who has a very big influence as a living artist working today... Mignola's very early work has a very Jeff Jones and Wrightsonesqe quality to it. But those tell-tale signs shed away pretty early on. With the exception of the Kirby crackle, and occasionally something tech-like, there's not much Kirby left on the surface of Mike's work. That doesn't mean the influence of storytelling, of dynamics or world-building or ideas are not all still in there somewhere, filtered through Mike's sensibilities.

Beginning artists tend to wear that visual influence on their sleeves, and over time as they find their own voice, those trappings fall away. For the guys with distinctive visual and written voices, they are all but subsumed into what they become. And then years later someone else apes THEIR work, until they find their own voice (or not).

Crumb as influencer could simply be the way he tells stories (not draws them, but conceives them), the kind of personal tales he told, or the wry wit and or base topics that he favored. Their personal nature. Their reach. The desire to keep to very short anthology like comic, as a grouping of single pagers, etc. Doesn't mean Ware is telling those stories, but that they changed the inflections of how he told the stories he wanted to tell.

There could be a million and one influences, and we aren't going to "see" all of them. Just because we don't see it, doesn't mean it's not buried in there somewhere.
You'd have to ask Ware what KIND influence he was. Could have been as simple as he had never intended to draw comics until he saw the comics that Crumb did, and it made him think "Hey, I can do something like THAT!"
Even simply that kind of exposure can totally change a career. We don't get to decide how big of an influence someone has been on someone else (most of the time. I'm looking at you Hoffman), but  sometimes we can see it. Sometimes we can't. just because we don't doesn't negate the actual level of influence.

It's a great artist that can take an artform and make it totally their own distinctive unmistakable thing. It's a lot of work, and a whole lot of stealing bits and pieces, and putting in the hours and years, until no one can tell where it comes from anymore. Then it's theirs.
And then there are those rare artists that seem to spring up from out of nowhere, fully formed. Like James Jean, for instance.

 

 

 

 

Except for that quote posted by Glen, Crumb is NEVER mentioned as an influence on Ware. He owns original art by Frank King (Gasoline Alley) and has both mentioned Winsor McCay and visually referenced both King & McCay in his work. Ware is very much a retro-influenced artist, in some senses. Crumb is very, very different. I think its almost de rigeur for an independent graphic sequential artist who isn't a product of the comic book industry to cite Crumb as an influence, even if its only in terms of "attitude" or differentness. But in terms of Chris Ware art style, Crumb ain't it. He's far more influenced, as I said, by King, McCay and even Herriman. 

[PhilipB2k17]

23 minutes ago, ESeffinga said:

I hope we aren't mistaking visual influence for the potential topic at hand here? I suppose some could be.
But influence can and often is far more than drawing in the style of. In fact, I hope people are thinking of influence as being greater than simply having visually identifiable imitators or markers.

For instance, Jack Kirby is a HUGE influence on Mike Mignola. Mike's art bares very little resemblance to Kirby. But that does not negate the influence Kirby had on Mike's work.
Influence can come in many guises. As an example of someone who has a very big influence as a living artist working today... Mignola's very early work has a very Jeff Jones and Wrightsonesqe quality to it. But those tell-tale signs shed away pretty early on. With the exception of the Kirby crackle, and occasionally something tech-like, there's not much Kirby left on the surface of Mike's work. That doesn't mean the influence of storytelling, of dynamics or world-building or ideas are not all still in there somewhere, filtered through Mike's sensibilities.

 

I can very much see Kirby's influence on Mignola, actually, in terms of staging, action, and storytelling. He draws very differently, of course, but you can see that influence there. 

[ESeffinga]

Putting aside the stepping around of the quote posted where he sites the influence in his own words... there is always the old adage, truth is stranger than fiction.

We can make up all the reasons we want about why the influence isn’t there, but I’d err on the side of the guy’s own words, unless something else more factual than a hunch came to light.

And if I genuinely cared, I’d just cut to the chase and try tracking down Ware to ask him directly. 

 

For sure, Some people drop names to add what they think is some form of street credibility as well. But someone like Ware doesn’t exactly need to do that. So... Whatever.

 

That said, I think Crumb’s biggest influence long term may yet be in the school of what not to do. Time will tell on that front.

 

[vodou]

3 minutes ago, ESeffinga said:

I think Crumb’s biggest influence long term may yet be in the school of what not to do.

Be true to one's self? I hope not. We lose that to the thought police, there's nothing left.

Or I guess we can all glad-hand everything in public and still be puerile (and worse) in our thoughts. I guess.

What a dumb world. Some (all) of us can't be tamed. Nor should we be.

[ESeffinga]

On another note, I have one that will seem... pedestrian.

Scott McCloud

How many comic artists do you think have been influenced by Understanding Comics? I hear artists mention it to other would be artists all the time.

He may not be the originator of the ideas it houses, but he did the legwork. That book has sold a LOT of copies.

It makes me think of polls about topics like most influential rock album.

Eventually on the list a name pops up and you think how the heck did that get so high up there? But when you ask hundreds of people for a list of say, top 20 of anything... Sometimes something qualifies just by being in no one’s top 5, but in everyone’s top 20. Next thing you know, it has more votes than the more “obvious” names on the list.

McCloud isn’t a sexy name. He hasn’t done a ton. But he’s helped countless artists make decisions on their art choices in some potentially fundamental ways.

Interesting to ponder anyhow...

[zhamlau]

On some level, shouldn't Bill Watterson be on this list? Every cartoonist in the world is basically trying to be him, as are many of the indy writers and artists.

[ESeffinga]

1 minute ago, vodou said:

Be true to one's self? I hope not. We lose that to the thought police, there's nothing left.

Or I guess we can all glad-hand everything in public and still be puerile (and worse) in our thoughts. I guess.

What a dumb world. Some (all) of us can't be tamed. Nor should we be.

Agree in principle at least.

[vodou]

6 minutes ago, ESeffinga said:

Agree in principle at least.

Tamed by others I mean, doesn't mean we can't grow (up) and tame ourselves.

Late Crumb without Early Crumb would be..?? Nothing to discuss, that's for sure.

[jjonahjameson11]

8 hours ago, CartoonFanboy said:

Agreed about Image. Regarding Spawn however, I'm far more impressed by the fact that Erik Larsen has written and drawn all 245 issues in on the Savage Dragon. In my opinion, if Larsen crosses the 300 issue threshold with that title, it's a much greater accomplishment. 

I realize art is subjective but OMG, I had to do a frigging double-take after reading your post!!!

Sticking a pencil up your arse and making crude squiggles on a page for 245 issues is NOT an accomplishment 

However, I will concede that convincing people to buy that  for 245 issues IS an accomplishment!

[SquareChaos]

1 minute ago, jjonahjameson11 said:

I realize art is subjective but OMG, I had to do a frigging double-take after reading your post!!!

Sticking a pencil up your arse and making crude squiggles on a page for 245 issues is NOT an accomplishment 

However, I will concede that convincing people to buy that  for 245 issues IS an accomplishment!

Tell us how you really feel, don't hold back! 

 

For what it's worth, not a big Larsen fan either, but I'm still impressed and feel his longevity, and commitment to, Savage Dragon is an accomplishment. Especially in this day and age where creators are constantly moving on to the next thing at a quicker and quicker pace. 

[jjonahjameson11]

59 minutes ago, SquareChaos said:

Tell us how you really feel, don't hold back! 

 

For what it's worth, not a big Larsen fan either, but I'm still impressed and feel his longevity, and commitment to, Savage Dragon is an accomplishment. Especially in this day and age where creators are constantly moving on to the next thing at a quicker and quicker pace. 

Rest assured, I did go easy wrt Larsen's 'artwork' in my post, 'cause the CGC Mods would have a field day if I told you how I really felt about it.

[J.Sid]

19 hours ago, ESeffinga said:

Sure, but the metric is different.

It's one thing to have written and drawn a comic for 300 issues. And something else to own the title, and have drawn or been involved in the drawing/inking of "easily more than half".
Maybe that's just my opinion, but I see them as distinctly different things.

This does very little to convince me that he was an 'absentee landlord'

I like your Crumb posts better.

[ESeffinga]

Just stating my opinion on the facts at hand. I'm not a fan of McFarlane, or Larsen, or Araki. I am of Sim, but that's neither here nor there as far as the numbers are concerned. I respect all of the artists mentioned and the work they have all put in.
It's hard work to do the actual art chores on 1 book, much less 300 in a row. Look at how few have done it. 

What I see is that the "title" Spawn qualifies has having done 300 issues, for sure. That is a fact. McFarlane doesn't qualify as having the same accomplishment as the others listed above simply based on the facts/numbers of what they did on each.
It's a totally different metric, no matter who wants to call McFarlane what, or who likes which art style better, or finds any particular argument convincing. He either did or he didn't.

The accomplishment of having a book that has lasted 300 issues is totally with McFarlane. The other guys just did it in a way that is far more impressive to me, and his accomplishment takes nothing away from theirs, which IMO is MUCH harder.
It is a bit like his legendary $3mil McGwire ball. It gets an asterisk next to it.

 

 

[CartoonFanboy]

12 hours ago, jjonahjameson11 said:

I realize art is subjective but OMG, I had to do a frigging double-take after reading your post!!!

Sticking a pencil up your arse and making crude squiggles on a page for 245 issues is NOT an accomplishment 

However, I will concede that convincing people to buy that  for 245 issues IS an accomplishment!

Actually, drawing a comic book with one's posterior for 245 issues probably would be an accomplishment, especially in today's art world. Juvenile humor aside though, it's okay to hate Larsen's work (I'm not actually much of a fan myself), but it IS an undeniable accomplishment to have written a drawn 245 consecutive issues of a self published title. Not even the almighty sumo emoji can change that.