eBay Buyer Fraud via Pay Pal to Circumvent eBay - How to handle a Scam Artist? 0

[Stat Monsters]

Hi!  I was wondering if anyone who sells on eBay has encountered this scenario, and I'll try not to be too verbose to cause confusion by pointing out the facts of this scenario

* Buyer made offers on two (2) CGC graded books, which were accepted by the Seller and paid for then shipped in June

* More than 2 weeks after receiving the books, the Buyer sends a message claiming damage showing an obscured photo (could be doctored) requesting some sort of restitution

* Seller offers going through USPS Insurance claims, but requests more and better photos to process the claim.  Buyer does not respond

* Buyer eventually responds days later with a series of unprofessional messages ranging from threatening to profane, rude as well as unreasonable.  Declines to send photos.

* Seller professionally requests the photos once again to help the buyer process a claim (which at this point appears to be malicious criminal mail fraud on the buyer's initiative and actions)

* Buyer sends more obscured photos, all of which shows nothing remarkable.  Buyer sends a subsequent message essentially stating "What's going on?  Well, I'm tired of this process, let's forget about it, I'm done." in a short and rude manner.

* In September, over 3 months after the eBay transaction, the Buyer files a complaint claim with their credit card company through Pay Pal for their money back, as a chargeback claiming "item not as described" but claiming the full amount paid for the 2 items and shipping in total.

* eBay's Customer Service says there's nothing they can do.  Essentially, upon my inquiry they eluded to the Buyer as potentially pulling a sly maneuver.  eBay won't process requests from buyers to return/refund items after 90 days, but at the same time won't protect the seller either.  This maneuver enabled the Buyer to not risk having their claim denied by eBay.  

* Pay Pal allows customer issues up to 180 days from date of transaction to dispute, essentially extending eBay's window of 3 months to 6 months for an issue to be active.  So, warning to eBay Sellers, the transaction is not bullet proof for at least 6 months for criminal buyers to impact the sale.

* Pay Pal now handles the case and that is where the status is now.  Pay Pal has been informed of the facts and furnished with the information including the pure fact that a claim for the full amount is being made on a claim that one of the items is slightly damaged, so it's like if you bought 10 picture frames from Amazon for $10 each, $100 total, 5 came broken, but you are claiming $100 instead of the true $50.  Furthermore, the Buyer still has possession of the items and has not initiated or attempted to return the merchandise for their money back. 

So, I was wondering if anyone had ever encountered this scenario and if so, how was it handled and what was the outcome? 

[mattn792]

Sounds like you’ve handled it as well as you can so far.

I suspect an eBay buyer is going to try and pull the same thing on me when the 90 day window runs, so in anticipation I’ve made sure to save copies of all delivery info, message exchanges, and the positive feedback he left.

It’s the best thing you can do with a bad vibe transaction that you aren’t able to avoid in advance.

[kav]

3 hours ago, Stat Monsters said:

Hi!  I was wondering if anyone who sells on eBay has encountered this scenario, and I'll try not to be too verbose to cause confusion by pointing out the facts of this scenario

* Buyer made offers on two (2) CGC graded books, which were accepted by the Seller and paid for then shipped in June

* More than 2 weeks after receiving the books, the Buyer sends a message claiming damage showing an obscured photo (could be doctored) requesting some sort of restitution

* Seller offers going through USPS Insurance claims, but requests more and better photos to process the claim.  Buyer does not respond

* Buyer eventually responds days later with a series of unprofessional messages ranging from threatening to profane, rude as well as unreasonable.  Declines to send photos.

* Seller professionally requests the photos once again to help the buyer process a claim (which at this point appears to be malicious criminal mail fraud on the buyer's initiative and actions)

* Buyer sends more obscured photos, all of which shows nothing remarkable.  Buyer sends a subsequent message essentially stating "What's going on?  Well, I'm tired of this process, let's forget about it, I'm done." in a short and rude manner.

* In September, over 3 months after the eBay transaction, the Buyer files a complaint claim with their credit card company through Pay Pal for their money back, as a chargeback claiming "item not as described" but claiming the full amount paid for the 2 items and shipping in total.

* eBay's Customer Service says there's nothing they can do.  Essentially, upon my inquiry they eluded to the Buyer as potentially pulling a sly maneuver.  eBay won't process requests from buyers to return/refund items after 90 days, but at the same time won't protect the seller either.  This maneuver enabled the Buyer to not risk having their claim denied by eBay.  

* Pay Pal allows customer issues up to 180 days from date of transaction to dispute, essentially extending eBay's window of 3 months to 6 months for an issue to be active.  So, warning to eBay Sellers, the transaction is not bullet proof for at least 6 months for criminal buyers to impact the sale.

* Pay Pal now handles the case and that is where the status is now.  Pay Pal has been informed of the facts and furnished with the information including the pure fact that a claim for the full amount is being made on a claim that one of the items is slightly damaged, so it's like if you bought 10 picture frames from Amazon for $10 each, $100 total, 5 came broken, but you are claiming $100 instead of the true $50.  Furthermore, the Buyer still has possession of the items and has not initiated or attempted to return the merchandise for their money back. 

So, I was wondering if anyone had ever encountered this scenario and if so, how was it handled and what was the outcome? 

pls post his ebay handle in this thread so we can all avoid him and also curtail his buying experience.

https://www.cgccomics.com/boards/topic/328716-ebay-blocked-user-list/

 

[boatfund]

yes and I won.  Buyer bought an X-Men 266 NM  and not a peep out of him during the 90? days the ad still shows up on ebay and claims can be filed.  Then filed with paypal  about 170 days after it ended (almost 6 months) saying item was not as described and noted "box damaged" and wanted a full refund (plus I had double boxed it).  This was the first I had heard from him.   Well heck any insufficiently_thoughtful_person could figure out even if he shipped something back I would not get the same book back (no pictures left on ebay), they could buy a $5 beater and keep the NM.   I called and as I'm talking to the paypal rep and explaining the long delay in noting damage - ebay no longer even shows the item - and how I'm going to be ripped off - she goes this was a collectible?  I replied yes. She stated no one is going to wait to open up a damaged box that contains a collectible for 5 months.  I'm denying his claim. 

So yes, even after the ebay window is closed, paypal's window is 180 days.  I would call a paypal rep.

.  

 

Edited September 12, 2019 by boatfund

[Stat Monsters]

1 hour ago, kav said:

pls post his ebay handle in this thread so we can all avoid him and also curtail his buying experience.

https://www.cgccomics.com/boards/topic/328716-ebay-blocked-user-list/

 

I'll post his info once this settles, as I don't want to potentially sabotage my case in the slim event he's on these boards and feels he's being "outed" unnecessarily.  I would hope he'd realize, after I pointed it out that he is indeed committing USPS Postal Fraud.  I'll give him a chance to withdraw his claim and apologize for his illegal aggression. 

I'm going to outline in my next correspondence to Pay Pal and the Buyer a reminder that:

Mail fraud is punishable by a fine and imprisonment of up to 20 years. 

For those following this thread, here's some potentially helpful information:

https://faq.usps.com/s/article/Mail-Fraud

If you believe you've been victimized by a scam involving the U.S. Mail, you can get help by contacting your nearest Postal Inspection Service office in one of three ways: Call 1-877-876-2455 (press option “4” to report suspected mail fraud). Visit postalinspectors.uspis.gov to report suspected fraud online.

How to Contact the U.S. Postal Inspection Service

If you believe you’ve been targeted by a scam involving the U.S. Mail, you can get help by contacting your nearest Postal Inspection Service office in one of three ways:

Call 1-877-876-2455.

Visit www.uspis.gov to report suspected fraud online.

Mail your queries to this address:

CRIMINAL INVESTIGATIONS SERVICE CENTER

ATTN: MAIL FRAUD

433 HARRISON STREET RM 3255

CHICAGO IL 60699-3255

To learn more about mail fraud 

[Stat Monsters]

23 minutes ago, boatfund said:

yes and I won.  Buyer bought an X-Men 266 NM  and not a peep out of him during the 90? days the ad still shows up on ebay and claims can be filed.  Then filed with paypal  about 170 days after it ended (almost 6 months) saying item was not as described and noted "box damaged" and wanted a full refund (plus I had double boxed it).  This was the first I had heard from him.   Well heck any insufficiently_thoughtful_person could figure out even if he shipped something back I would not get the same book back (no pictures left on ebay), they could buy a $5 beater and keep the NM.   I called and as I'm talking to the paypal rep and explaining the long delay in noting damage - ebay no longer even shows the item - and how I'm going to be ripped off - she goes this was a collectible?  I replied yes. She stated no one is going to wait to open up a damaged box that contains a collectible for 5 months.  I'm denying his claim. 

So yes, even after the ebay window is closed, paypal's window is 180 days.  I would call a paypal rep.

.  

 

Thanks for sharing your experience.  Do you happen to have the right Pay Pal phone number you used?  I'm accustomed to eBay and other businesses who conduct their businesses primarily online to have horrible customer service systems where it's either like pulling teeth to get a phone number and sometimes it's an IVR that won't allow you to speak to anyone and gives you the runaround.  I'd appreciate it if you could lead me to the right number for Pay Pal or where you found it.  THANK YOU!!!

[James J Johnson]

10 hours ago, Stat Monsters said:

Hi!  I was wondering if anyone who sells on eBay has encountered this scenario, and I'll try not to be too verbose to cause confusion by pointing out the facts of this scenario

* Buyer made offers on two (2) CGC graded books, which were accepted by the Seller and paid for then shipped in June

* More than 2 weeks after receiving the books, the Buyer sends a message claiming damage showing an obscured photo (could be doctored) requesting some sort of restitution

* Seller offers going through USPS Insurance claims, but requests more and better photos to process the claim.  Buyer does not respond

* Buyer eventually responds days later with a series of unprofessional messages ranging from threatening to profane, rude as well as unreasonable.  Declines to send photos.

* Seller professionally requests the photos once again to help the buyer process a claim (which at this point appears to be malicious criminal mail fraud on the buyer's initiative and actions)

* Buyer sends more obscured photos, all of which shows nothing remarkable.  Buyer sends a subsequent message essentially stating "What's going on?  Well, I'm tired of this process, let's forget about it, I'm done." in a short and rude manner.

* In September, over 3 months after the eBay transaction, the Buyer files a complaint claim with their credit card company through Pay Pal for their money back, as a chargeback claiming "item not as described" but claiming the full amount paid for the 2 items and shipping in total.

* eBay's Customer Service says there's nothing they can do.  Essentially, upon my inquiry they eluded to the Buyer as potentially pulling a sly maneuver.  eBay won't process requests from buyers to return/refund items after 90 days, but at the same time won't protect the seller either.  This maneuver enabled the Buyer to not risk having their claim denied by eBay.  

* Pay Pal allows customer issues up to 180 days from date of transaction to dispute, essentially extending eBay's window of 3 months to 6 months for an issue to be active.  So, warning to eBay Sellers, the transaction is not bullet proof for at least 6 months for criminal buyers to impact the sale.

* Pay Pal now handles the case and that is where the status is now.  Pay Pal has been informed of the facts and furnished with the information including the pure fact that a claim for the full amount is being made on a claim that one of the items is slightly damaged, so it's like if you bought 10 picture frames from Amazon for $10 each, $100 total, 5 came broken, but you are claiming $100 instead of the true $50.  Furthermore, the Buyer still has possession of the items and has not initiated or attempted to return the merchandise for their money back. 

So, I was wondering if anyone had ever encountered this scenario and if so, how was it handled and what was the outcome? 

This is going to be a tough nut to crack. Once a credit card company rescinds the funds from paypal, you've got a problem. This is why I would never sell anything of any consequence on ebay and instead opt to choose a professional representative like Heritage, Connect, or Link as a selling agent on rare occasions when I sell a piece to finance another one. They assume the risk with something like this, you're paid, case closed. Now they fight it out with their lawyers, their legal dept. and you're saved the hassle of that.

CC chargebacks are a cost of doing business on ebay. Leakage. Typically, when they occur, you lose, and need to sell a lot to make up that loss.

[boatfund]

https://www.paypal.com/us/smarthelp/contact-us

hit the contact us button and phone number and passcode pulls up  - you may get transferred several times - be clear, you have a buyer committing fraud that is trying to get a refund from you - the ebay item no longer pulls up due to the time frame.

"Call PayPal Customer Service and enter this one-time passcode when prompted.

The code below takes you directly to the experts you need."

like I said they may transfer you several times.

fyi - you have to go through multiple pages on the paypal website (starting with main home page) to get a phone number and ignore the pop-ups to chat about your problem through messaging - it is hard to find the phone number.   They do seem to prefer you using online system, however speaking with a rep works out best for me.

[justafan]

3 hours ago, James J Johnson said:

This is going to be a tough nut to crack. Once a credit card company rescinds the funds from paypal, you've got a problem. This is why I would never sell anything of any consequence on ebay and instead opt to choose a professional representative like Heritage, Connect, or Link as a selling agent on rare occasions when I sell a piece to finance another one. They assume the risk with something like this, you're paid, case closed. Now they fight it out with their lawyers, their legal dept. and you're saved the hassle of that.

CC chargebacks are a cost of doing business on ebay. Leakage. Typically, when they occur, you lose, and need to sell a lot to make up that loss.

Frankly I'm amazed he was able to initiate a charge-back at all.  Which CC company was he using?  Most CC companies require documentation and proof that you've tried to resolve the matter with the merchant/seller which in this case means going through the standard ebay/paypal resolution process.  Maybe I missed something but it doesn't sound like they did and almost like they just straight PM'd you back and forth before requesting a chargeback.  Was an ebay case ever opened for this issue?  Was a paypal case opened?  From a seller's perspective, opening a case in this instance is the best thing you could have done as it forces them to try and work through the process.  It wouldn't stop them from sending you back garbage in a box and requesting a refund but The key part of a USPS claim is that in order for USPS to approve the accepting the submission filing (not necessarily an approval of reimbursement) of a claim, they have to:

1. Inspect the box, packing materials, and content items (comics)

2. They have to take possession of the items (comics) during the claims process.  If the claim is granted and reimbursement paid, the comics will remain in USPS possession to be liquidated for some capital recapture.

If the claim is denied, they will release the items back to the buyer or arrangements could be made to have the returned to the seller.

However, once the claim is approved for submission (not yet reimbursement) and the comics are in USPS possession, you are supposed to issue a refund through ebay/paypal.

The problem is that the buyer probably knows that if they were to actually try and go through a claims process the USPS postal manager would either:

A: see that there really is no damage to the comics/items and deny the claim, and

B: have to give up possession of the comics for USPS to hold until the claim is approved.

I've done 3 legitimate USPS claims successfully.  2 as a buyer and 1 as a seller.  From the buyers side, he has to jump through multiple hoops to even get the claim submitted:

drive to the PO with all contents during open hours and purchase receipt

meet with the postal manager after waiting in line for several long minutes

fill out the necessary forms,

Present all contents and explain the original value and the post-damage value (note: this is the hardest part as you often have to explain why a comic has lost 90% or more of its value as a collectible after having been damaged and case cracked). Helps to have a description of grades/defects/CGC reholding/regrading requirements/ebay sales, and GPA pricing on hand.  YMMV, but some postal managers will just accept your word and submit the claim without a fuss.  At least 1 required an education in collectible valuation.

And get a receipt/copy of the claim and items being held.

If he didn't attempt any of that or open a case with ebay/paypal and work through this with you, then the CC company should never have approved a chargeback.  See if you can find out who the CC company is, reach out to them and review their chargeback policies and perhaps open a fraud case with them and Paypal citing buyer's failure to comply with resolution and chargeback policies.

Not sure if they will be willing to rescind it but if you can prove that they didn't follow proper merchant resolution procedures prior to chargeback and get paypal on your side, you should have a case on your side.

 

 

[Red_Hood]

You lost me at verbose, but thank you for writing a "how to" book for the new regime of entitled buyers on the internet who are on the fence to scam sellers.

In all seriousness, this is a frustrating process when you get these types on the eCommerce world but I'm sure a slow and steady process should produce results that this person is trying to pull a scam.

Good Luck!  We all have our horror stories with some odd ball seller but life goes on.

[theCapraAegagrus]

I got rid of all my credit cards within the last 4 years, but it was smooth-as-butter for me to initiate a charge-back from AmEx and Visa Signature. There were times when I did not have to return the product.

If you're completely transparent, and disclose all information to PayPal, I would be extremely surprised if the charge-back completes in favor of the buyer. It wouldn't make sense to me otherwise.

[Junkdrawer]

I simply refund or cancel and move on. A reholder fee is $12 and at some point I will do it. If you decide to go through the USPS insurance, at least you’ll have receipts to submit. Time is all you’ll lose. 

[James J Johnson]

35 minutes ago, Junkdrawer said:

If you decide to go through the USPS insurance,

Will USPS cover a claim for loss or damage on a comic book (antique)?

[Buzzetta]

1 hour ago, James J Johnson said:

Will USPS cover a claim for loss or damage on a comic book (antique)?

If being sent through priority mail, the current coverage is automatically $100.   Saw that again the other day and was surprised as I thought it was $50. 

 

[Junkdrawer]

21 hours ago, James J Johnson said:

Will USPS cover a claim for loss or damage on a comic book (antique)?

It’s the cracked slab that’s in question. Proving the value is easy as it’s got a price that can been seen publicly. Insuring then claiming loss through the USPS needs a strong case to prove cost like a RECENT LEGIT receipt. Market value will be a battle you will likely lose. If it were that easy people would be shipping broken stuff to family and friends as a full time job. 

[GACollectibles]

On 9/11/2019 at 10:49 PM, Stat Monsters said:

I'll post his info once this settles, as I don't want to potentially sabotage my case in the slim event he's on these boards and feels he's being "outed" unnecessarily.  I would hope he'd realize, after I pointed it out that he is indeed committing USPS Postal Fraud.  I'll give him a chance to withdraw his claim and apologize for his illegal aggression. 

I'm going to outline in my next correspondence to Pay Pal and the Buyer a reminder that:

Mail fraud is punishable by a fine and imprisonment of up to 20 years. 

 

If you haven't done this yet, I wouldn't.  Keep to the details of what you need to deal with him and don't complicate it with what could in turn be taken as a threat(even if it's not).

Edited September 13, 2019 by GACollectibles

[Buzzetta]

17 minutes ago, Junkdrawer said:

It’s the cracked slab that’s in question. Proving the value is easy as it’s got a price that can been seen publicly. Insuring then claiming loss through the USPS needs a strong case to prove cost like a RECENT LEGIT receipt. Market value will be a battle you will likely lose. If it were that easy people would be shipping broken stuff to family and friends as a full time job. 

When a slab arrived cracked I had to send pictures of what the item sold for like a screen grab and pictures from the listing. 

I have only had to do it once. I am guessing that awarding the insurance claim has to also do with frequency of making claims.  I don’t think they would award my claim if I had another occurrence in that year. 

Edited September 13, 2019 by Buzzetta

[Dick Pontoon]

Also, should something like this should occur again I’d recommend not getting into it with the buyer at all. Just offer a full refund with return of the books, don’t ask for more pictures or consider a partial refund, and do the entire process through ebay to the letter.

[mattn792]

48 minutes ago, Buzzetta said:

When a slab arrived cracked I had to send pictures of what the item sold for like a screen grab and pictures from the listing. 

I have only had to do it once. I am guessing that awarding the insurance claim has to also do with frequency of making claims.  I don’t think they would award my claim if I had another occurrence in that year. 

This isn't true.  While I don't have to file insurance claims all that often, I have had two awarded within a month or so of each other, both of which originated from USPS defeating my packaging and cracking slabs in transit to the buyers.  It's all about being thorough with the documentation in your claim

[Buzzetta]

3 hours ago, mattn792 said:

This isn't true.  While I don't have to file insurance claims all that often, I have had two awarded within a month or so of each other, both of which originated from USPS defeating my packaging and cracking slabs in transit to the buyers.  It's all about being thorough with the documentation in your claim

That's definitely good to know.  Thank you.