paypal's greed 0

[alexgross.com]

i know this was posted about here earlier. cant find the thread. but i only got the email today. the important part says

"In line with industry practice and according to our updated policy, we will not charge a fee to process refunds, but the fees from the original transaction will not be returned. This policy will not apply to duplicate transactions, voids and most disputed transactions. You can review the PayPal User Agreement for more information on our return policies. We only adjust our policies when we are confident the changes are fair and aligned with the value that our services provide to your business. "

what it should say is WE ONLY ADJUST OUR POLICIES TO SCREW PEOPLE OVER WHEN OUR LAWYERS TELL US THAT WE CAN GET AWAY WITH IT. 

what a bunch of scam artists. i do most of my business through paypal. this won't really cost me much but i do six figures a year in merch sales through them via my website and there are sometimes refunds for various reasons. if it were easier to redo my whole site to use another credit card processor, i certainly would. but it's a pretty big hassle. how pathetic they are. even sadder is how predictable corporate behavior like this has become these days. 

[jcjames]

[ADAMANTIUM]

Wait they sent out an email that PayPal undid this, right? Are they redoing it?

Weird I could have sworn they had recounted it....

[alexgross.com]

58 minutes ago, ADAMANTIUM said:

Wait they sent out an email that PayPal undid this, right? Are they redoing it?

Weird I could have sworn they had recounted it....

the email says that earlier this year they sent out an email about this dumb policy, and this email is letting me know it will be taking effect in october of this year. nothing about having undone it. 

[Senormac]

Revelation 13:17 American Standard Version (ASV)

¹⁷ and that no man should be able to buy or to sell, save he that has the mark, even the name of the beast or the number of his name.

 

They are not going to get you to the place above all in one step you know...…   

[shadroch]

When your customer request a refund, PayPal has to undo a transaction. Does it seem fair that PayPal doesn't want to do two transactions for you for free?  They provided the service you paid them for, then undid it for you. 

Does Visa or Amex refund the transaction fees on refunds? 

I'm going to set up with square when I open for a few months until I get an idea of the volume.

 

[James J Johnson]

3 hours ago, www.alexgross.com said:

i know this was posted about here earlier. cant find the thread. but i only got the email today. the important part says

"In line with industry practice and according to our updated policy, we will not charge a fee to process refunds, but the fees from the original transaction will not be returned. This policy will not apply to duplicate transactions, voids and most disputed transactions. You can review the PayPal User Agreement for more information on our return policies. We only adjust our policies when we are confident the changes are fair and aligned with the value that our services provide to your business. "

what it should say is WE ONLY ADJUST OUR POLICIES TO SCREW PEOPLE OVER WHEN OUR LAWYERS TELL US THAT WE CAN GET AWAY WITH IT. 

what a bunch of scam artists. i do most of my business through paypal. this won't really cost me much but i do six figures a year in merch sales through them via my website and there are sometimes refunds for various reasons. if it were easier to redo my whole site to use another credit card processor, i certainly would. but it's a pretty big hassle. how pathetic they are. even sadder is how predictable corporate behavior like this has become these days. 

Paypal isn't a bank. They are not subject to any of the rules and regulations governing legalities like the way a bank must operate. Quite literally, Paypal can do anything they please with the money they hold for you. Anything at all, for any reason or no reason at all.

You have only to use google to search a topic like "Paypal 6 month deep freeze", the pages there that you find as results for that one search will lead you to may more that will illustrate this point perfectly. That they can do anything they like with your account and it's all actually in your lengthy user agreement that must be agreed to before they even allow you to register for an account.  

[Gaard]

So are they or are they not?

[Martin Sinescu]

11 hours ago, shadroch said:

When your customer request a refund, PayPal has to undo a transaction. Does it seem fair that PayPal doesn't want to do two transactions for you for free?  They provided the service you paid them for, then undid it for you. 

Does Visa or Amex refund the transaction fees on refunds? 

I'm going to set up with square when I open for a few months until I get an idea of the volume.

 

Yup. From our point of view as sellers, we don't like it, but they are still providing a service for us and when they have to transfer money twice and have nothing to show for it (usually not through any fault of theirs), that's obviously not to their benefit. The marketplace mentality has changed greatly over the last decade or two, both in stores and online, where buyers have very little obligation or burden in terms of refunds, so it's usually the sellers that are forced to eat the loss. I'm curious as to the Visa/Amex question, but my assumption is that they do not refund transaction fees to retailers if an item is returned, so then paypal would be just in line with that policy if it's correct.

[comicwiz]

I recently was scammed by a seller, first time in 20 years that I've been using feeBay. It was the strangest transaction I have every witnessed. I win the item, send payment right away since I had hoped this would make the seller ship the item quicker. I don't see any activity in my account for a few weeks, then out of nowhere I see a tracking number show up in my purchase history on the scammageBay dashboard. I keep an eye on the package. A few weeks pass and I didn't receive anything. Check the tracking, shows the item was delivered - the only catch was it was delivered to Vancouver and I don't live in that city. I go online and see the seller is no longer a registerred used, and his feedback is turned to private. When I open a claim within scammageBay, I see in huge font YOU ARE NOT PROTECTED WITH THIS TRANSACTION. In my mind I said, like #$$@ I'm not. Login to PayPal, file a claim and within minutes I get on the phone with someone from PayPal to plead my case and while I'm waiting on the line I see the money refunded in my account. When I finally get someone on the phone, they explain that the seller was deemed fraudulant and that the payment would be refunded (which it already was).

So given these new terms, does that mean even when someone tries to scam you like the seller did with me, PayPal still keeps the original transaction fees?

Edited September 19, 2019 by comicwiz

[ADAMANTIUM]

3 minutes ago, comicwiz said:

I recently was scammed by a seller, first time in 20 years that I've been using feeBay. It was the strangest transaction I have every witnessed. I win the item, send payment right away since I had hoped this would make the seller ship the item quicker. I don't see any activity in my account for a few weeks, then out of nowhere I see a tracking number show up in my purchase history on the scammageBay dashboard. I keep an eye on the package. A few weeks pass and I didn't receive anything. Check the tracking, shows the item was delivered - the only catch was it was delivered to Vancouver and I don't live in that city. I go online and see the seller is no longer a registerred used, and his feedback is turned to private. When I open a claim within scammageBay, I see in huge font YOU ARE NOT PROTECTED WITH THIS TRANSACTION. In my mind I said, like #$$@ I'm not. Login to PayPal, file a claim and within minutes I get on the phone with someone from PayPal to plead my case and while I'm waiting on the line I see the money refunded in my account. When I finally get someone on the phone, they explain that the seller was deemed fraudulant and that the payment would be refunded (which it already was).

So given these new terms, does that mean even when someone tries to scam you like the seller did with me, PayPal still keeps the original fees? That seems super-sketchy and frankly I hope someone sues them over this.

Did you at least get a full refund?

[James J Johnson]

2 minutes ago, comicwiz said:

I recently was scammed by a seller on eBay. First time in 20 years I've been using eBay. It was the strangest transaction I have every witnessed. I win the item, send payment right away since I had hoped this would make the seller ship the item quicker. I don't see any activity in my account for a few weeks, then out of nowhere I see a tracking number show up in my purchase history on the eBay dashboard. I keep an eye on the package. A few weeks pass and I didn't receive anything. Check the tracking, shows the item was delivered - the only catch was it was delivered to Vancouver and I don't live in that city. I go online and see the seller is no longer a registerred used, and his feedback is turned to private. When I open a claim within eBay, I see in huge font YOU ARE NOT PROTECTED WITH THIS TRANSACTION. In my mind I said, like #$$@ I'm not. Login to PayPal, file a claim and within minutes I get on the phone with someone from PayPal to plead my case and while I'm waiting on the line I see the money refunded in my account. When I finally get someone on the phone, they explain that the seller was deemed fraudulant and that the payment would be refunded (which it already was).

So given these new terms, does that mean even when someone tries to scam you like the seller did with me, PayPal still keeps the original fees? That seems super-sketchy and frankly I hope someone sues them over this.

Read the user agreement. Go through carefully. And all the user updates. When you enter on the AGREE link, which you must in order to proceed to renew or register for the site, you have effectively given them permission to do all that they stipulated in the user agreement, and basically, that would be anything they please. That's the true cost of using paypal's services. Not just the several % for the transaction, but the potential for loss of an undetermined amount when they decide to do whatever they want with your money or with a transaction, and again, this is worded very clearly in their ever updated user agreement that everyone must sign to continue to use their services. It's not a banking institution, thus not subject to banking regulations.

[comicwiz]

1 minute ago, ADAMANTIUM said:

Did you at least get a full refund?

Yes, but I wonder what would happen in a situation where a seller committed fraud, under these new terms would PayPal refund and still keep the transaction fees?

[Hollywood1892]

Paypal

[comicwiz]

10 minutes ago, James J Johnson said:

this is worded very clearly in their ever updated user agreement that everyone must sign to continue to use their services.

I understand what you are saying, and don't disagree, but you agree to the terms even when an update to policy happens by merely logging-in and using the site. There is no signing on paper with pen going on technically. And this is the way of online TOS, but keep in mind that Facebook faced a lot of backlash (and an impending $5 Billion fine as a result) when they used this to excuse themselves from any responsibility during the whole privacy breach with Facebook accounts, and third-party's misuse and accessing these accounts to commit election fraud. PayPal may find themselves in a similar precarious situation if they don't return fees in cases of fraud.

Edited September 19, 2019 by comicwiz

[Hollywood1892]

Behind every great fortune there is a crime

              -Balzac

Edited September 21, 2019 by Hollywood1892

[ADAMANTIUM]

6 minutes ago, comicwiz said:

Yes, but I wonder what would happen in a situation where a seller committed fraud, under these new terms would PayPal refund and still keep the transaction fees?

It would probably over draft the fraudulent seller and PayPal would write it off as a loss at the end of the year. I think the main thing is the buyer gets a full refund whether the seller has the funds or not, which hurts me as a small time seller. I don't usually leave money in my "PayPal" balance to cover overdraft from a return

 

[James J Johnson]

14 minutes ago, comicwiz said:

I understand what you are saying, and don't disagree, but you agree to the terms even when an update to policy happens by merely logging-in and using the site. There is no signing on paper with pen going on technically. And this is the way of online TOS, but keep in mind that Facebook faced a lot of backlash (and an impending $5 Billion fine as a result) when they used this to excuse themselves from any responsibility during the whole privacy breach with Facebook accounts, and third-party's misuse and accessing these accounts to commit election fraud. PayPal may find themselves in a similar precarious situation if they don't return fees in cases of fraud.

Given, that by using the service, you're giving them complete control over your money, and permission to reach into multiple accounts and in some cases your designated bank account (see google articles on suspensions and account freezes) their not refunding the 3% or so transaction fee should be the absolute least of a Paypal user's causes for concern.  

 

[rsouxlja7]

This change is going to be a huge annoyance going forward. I very rarely have to issue refunds for a return (maybe once/year on 250 or more sales) but I often have to refund people because I will send an invoice, they'll pay, and then will tell me that their PayPal does not have updated information for their address. The resolution that I have found is you refund them, add the correct shipping address to the invoice, they pay, and you are now covered on the correct shipping address. I've refunded over $500 in the past few months alone because of this exact scenario. So in the future that buyer is going to have that fee tacked on to their 2nd invoice or they'll tell me no thanks and I'll have to eat the fee on the original one due to no fault of my own. 

Here's another great example of why this is unfair that I saw on another topic about this:

"One of my friends sell performance car parts and some can't ship to California because of laws. Buyers don't ever read the listing saying this cannot be shipped to California. So someone could buy a $5,000 exhaust and he has to refund them and lose money."

Also, I would think a competitor/retaliatory buyer could buy your items on eBay, pay, ask for a refund before you ship, and screw you over. An extreme example but possible. 

[shadroch]

29 minutes ago, rsouxlja7 said:

This change is going to be a huge annoyance going forward. I very rarely have to issue refunds for a return (maybe once/year on 250 or more sales) but I often have to refund people because I will send an invoice, they'll pay, and then will tell me that their PayPal does not have updated information for their address. The resolution that I have found is you refund them, add the correct shipping address to the invoice, they pay, and you are now covered on the correct shipping address. I've refunded over $500 in the past few months alone because of this exact scenario. So in the future that buyer is going to have that fee tacked on to their 2nd invoice or they'll tell me no thanks and I'll have to eat the fee on the original one due to no fault of my own. 

Here's another great example of why this is unfair that I saw on another topic about this:

"One of my friends sell performance car parts and some can't ship to California because of laws. Buyers don't ever read the listing saying this cannot be shipped to California. So someone could buy a $5,000 exhaust and he has to refund them and lose money."

Also, I would think a competitor/retaliatory buyer could buy your items on eBay, pay, ask for a refund before you ship, and screw you over. An extreme example but possible. 

That sucks but why should PayPal shareholders pay for two transactions and eat those costs?