Warning: More Corrupt, Fraudulent, and Criminal Behavior by eBay 1 1

[RockMyAmadeus]

Sold this item:

Buyer received this:

Buyer, without contacting me directly, opens a return case on eBay, which I despise because it's not how you conduct business, but whatever.

I ask buyer for further pictures, specifically of all sides of the box, and immediately file insurance claim with USPS.

Buyer sends me these:

 

 

Which does not, as I requested, show all sides of the box. I again request further pictures of the ENTIRE box, and the buyer says "Will do!"...and then never does.

Drops the return in the mail. It's "delivered" today:

Unfortunately, it was delivered HERE:

I am NOT "Warner Brothers", nor am I "L LAZANO."

So, I did what I was supposed to do...I called eBay, since I now only have TWO (2) business days to refund the buyer, or they will FORCE a refund.

What was I told...?

"Oh, sorry, since it shows as delivered, there's nothing we can do." 

(Which is always the most flagrantly insulting BS answer, because it's a lie: of course there's something they can do: HOLD OPEN THE CASE UNTIL I GET THE GD BOOK RETURNED.)

"But...you can see that it wasn't delivered to me, and the buyer is responsible for getting it back to ME."

"Sorry...it shows as delivered, and since it's delivered to the same city and state, that's good enough."

"But...you can SEE that it wasn't returned to ME. If I, as a seller, send something to someone in New York, I'm responsible for getting it to THEM...not New York."

"Sorry, there's nothing we can do. The best thing you can do is call the USPS and try to locate the package."

This is, of course, fraud, criminal, and illegal. 

eBay's own policy says this:

"If you're returning an item, you'll need to ship it back to the seller. "

"Once the seller receives the item back from you,"

https://www.ebay.com/help/buying/returns-refunds/returning-item?id=4041

Since I have NOT "received the item back" from the buyer, eBay is violating their terms. 

Just another brick in the wall.

 

Edited September 24, 2019 by RockMyAmadeus

[kav]

Very interesting.

[the blob]

So USPS ran it over with a truck?

Did the buyer do anything wrong? Didn't they attach your return label?

Weird.

[MGsimba77]

What's the status on the insurance claim? Have you contacted USPS about this to try and figure out if you can get the package back? 

I'd suggest continuing to contact Ebay and push the issue here as much as humanly possible! You obviously have this guy returning the book to another address clearly not holding up his end of the return process deal. It smells like a scam on the buyer's end. What's their feedback history?

[RockMyAmadeus]

5 minutes ago, the blob said:

So USPS ran it over with a truck?

Looks like it.

6 minutes ago, the blob said:

Did the buyer do anything wrong?

I asked for more pictures; buyer didn't send them. I asked the buyer to...here's the exact wording: ""please repackage the book as best you can, take a few more pictures of the original shipping box all the way around, and send the remains back to me, and I'll get you a full refund. IMPORTANT: PLEASE INCLUDE ALL ORIGINAL PACKING MATERIAL..."

Buyer did not, apparently, send back the damaged box as requested. I asked that it all be shipped back in a new box, not just simply reuse the old box....as I deal with maybe 1 return every 5 years, I never imagined that the buyer would interpret that to mean "get rid of the old box", especially after I very clearly said "send the remains back to me."

:shrug:

So, did the buyer do anything wrong...? You be the judge.

9 minutes ago, the blob said:

Didn't they attach your return label?

I imagine they did. It got all the way to Burbank, after all. My hope is that, since it's at Warner Brothers, someone will say "uh...there's no such person here" and give it back.

[RockMyAmadeus]

7 minutes ago, MGsimba77 said:

What's the status on the insurance claim? Have you contacted USPS about this to try and figure out if you can get the package back? 

I didn't find out it was misdelivered until tonight. I'll never, in a million years, understand how things can be SIGNED FOR and misdelivered. Never.

The insurance claim sent me a letter asking me to show up at a post office with all the original shipping materials...which may now be problematic even IF I get the box back.

8 minutes ago, MGsimba77 said:

I'd suggest continuing to contact Ebay and push the issue here as much as humanly possible! You obviously have this guy returning the book to another address clearly not holding up his end of the return process deal. It smells like a scam on the buyer's end. What's their feedback history?

I have no idea. I moved this year, so my return address was my old PO box since...again....I do maybe 1 return every 5 years. Before I caught it, I had sent out a return label. eBay...of course, the corrupt sons of evil they are...refused to let me reissue a corrected label, and the buyer refused to simply write in my new PO box...which is the RETURN ADDRESS ON THE ORIGINAL PACKAGE.

But, I figured, my forwarding order is valid for a year, doesn't expire until January, and I've gotten everything so far, so I figured it'd be fine to ship it back and it would be forwarded to me, like everything else has been.

Of course, how in the hell it ended up at Warner Brothers', I'll never know. The buyer lives in Florida; it's not like he would have changed the address to one a few blocks away from my old PO.

Their feedback history is fine, but like most buyers on ebay, he couldn't be bothered to trust that I wasn't out to screw him...so here we are.

 

[MGsimba77]

10 minutes ago, the blob said:

So USPS ran it over with a truck?

Did the buyer do anything wrong? Didn't they attach your return label?

Weird.

If the buyer returns it to the wrong address then obviously they did something wrong according to ebay's own return policy. All Ebay has to do is confirm the buyer returned it to the seller's address otherwise It could easily be a scam attempt

[masterlogan2000]

2 minutes ago, RockMyAmadeus said:

and the buyer refused to simply write in my new PO box

I'm genuinely sorry this happened to you.  I've had my fair share of issues with eBay returns and eBay doing everything they can to side with the buyer and deflect any blame or responsibility for using their platform.

However, from a buyer perspective, their refusal to "write-in" your new PO Box is simply the buyer protecting their own interests, as any modification can technically void their ability to receive their refund.

[RockMyAmadeus]

1 minute ago, MGsimba77 said:

If the buyer returns it to the wrong address then obviously they did something wrong according to ebay's own return policy. All Ebay has to do is confirm the buyer returned it to the seller's address otherwise It could easily be a scam attempt

That's the problem. eBay is corrupt, fraudulent, and criminal. They DON'T CARE. All that matters is that it shows as "delivered." 

End of story, too bad, so sad. 

I don't think the buyer returned it to the wrong address...but eBay still doesn't care. Literally, the Filipino ladies I spoke to told me that "as long as it's in the same city and state, and it shows delivered, then that's all that matters. You'll have to contact the USPS."

That's fraud. It's a violation of their own policies. It's illegal. It's misrepresentation.

What idiot in their right mind tells you that as long as it's in the same city, that's all that matters...? But that's precisely what MULTIPLE Filipino ladies told me over an hour+ long phone call.

Oh, and to rub salt in the wound...if I don't refund the buyer by Wednesday, I get a "defect" against my account.

eBay is criminal. Always has been, always will be. They have MUCH to answer for.

[RockMyAmadeus]

5 minutes ago, masterlogan2000 said:

However, from a buyer perspective, their refusal to "write-in" your new PO Box is simply the buyer protecting their own interests, as any modification can technically void their ability to receive their refund.

Not the issue. I only brought it up in answer to Simba's question. In the end, the buyer didn't want to, so the buyer didn't have to.

And I'll say this again: any modification can technically void their ability to receive their refund, IF:

1. The item didn't show up as delivered at all. From this experience, the item can show up delivered ANYWHERE in the state, and that's all that matters, and

2. I was interested in trying to cheat the buyer in some way. 

Edited September 24, 2019 by RockMyAmadeus

[masterlogan2000]

1 minute ago, RockMyAmadeus said:

1. The item didn't show up as delivered at all. From this experience, the item can show up delivered ANYWHERE in the state, and that's all that matters, and

This is a separate issue and clearly we agree that you're getting screwed by eBay.  This is quite simply ridiculous.

1 minute ago, RockMyAmadeus said:

2. I was interested in trying to cheat the buyer in some way. 

It's clearly documented here that we've had our fair share of disagreements.  With that said, I still find you to be a trustworthy person and someone that would hold up his end of a deal.

This transaction on eBay is different, though.  How does the buyer know you're not trying to cheat him in some way?  Is it because you told him as much?  (That's exactly what someone trying to cheat would say  ).

Put yourself in the buyer's shoes.  They ordered a book, and through no fault of yours or of the buyer's, it arrived damaged.  The buyer wants a refund, and to help ensure that this happens, it is in their best interest to follow eBay's return instructions.  This means not writing in a different address at the request of the seller.

I know if a seller asked me to do this, I would politely refuse.  Heck, I may even think the seller is trying to scam me by requesting such a thing.

[MGsimba77]

4 minutes ago, RockMyAmadeus said:

That's the problem. eBay is corrupt, fraudulent, and criminal. They DON'T CARE. All that matters is that it shows as "delivered." 

End of story, too bad, so sad. 

I don't think the buyer returned it to the wrong address...but eBay still doesn't care. Literally, the Filipino ladies I spoke to told me that "as long as it's in the same city and state, and it shows delivered, then that's all that matters. You'll have to contact the USPS."

That's fraud. It's a violation of their own policies. It's illegal. It's misrepresentation.

What idiot in their right mind tells you that as long as it's in the same city, that's all that matters...? But that's precisely what MULTIPLE Filipino ladies told me over an hour+ long phone call.

Oh, and to rub salt in the wound...if I don't refund the buyer by Wednesday, I get a "defect" against my account.

eBay is criminal. Always has been, always will be. They have MUCH to answer for.

Ok looks like any possible solution lies with USPS. You'll have to open up a package inquiry as soon as you can tomorrow and let them know exactly what happened. Sadly USPS is like the DMV equivalent in terms of mail tracking, delivery.

I wish the other carriers offered more insurance for high value items but not to be. There are third party parcel insurers but they're costly as hell 

[RockMyAmadeus]

Just now, MGsimba77 said:

Ok looks like any possible solution lies with USPS.

Yes...and that's what galls me. I abide by every GD term and rule eBay has, and they do not.

2 minutes ago, MGsimba77 said:

There are third party parcel insurers but they're costly as hell 

I approached Collectibles Insurance AGAIN this year for a quote, because I literally only need insurance for packages. They only have plans for deductibles going down to $200, which does me no good, since a good chunk of what I ship is $200 or less. I tried to explain to them that I pay thousands of dollars a year on USPS insurance, and I would be MORE than happy to pay THEM a higher premium for a $0, $50, or $100 deductible.

No dice. Not interested. 

[RockMyAmadeus]

10 minutes ago, masterlogan2000 said:

It's clearly documented here that we've had our fair share of disagreements.  With that said, I still find you to be a trustworthy person and someone that would hold up his end of a deal.

This transaction on eBay is different, though.  How does the buyer know you're not trying to cheat him in some way?  Is it because you told him as much?  (That's exactly what someone trying to cheat would say  ).

Put yourself in the buyer's shoes.  They ordered a book, and through no fault of yours or of the buyer's, it arrived damaged.  The buyer wants a refund, and to help ensure that this happens, it is in their best interest to follow eBay's return instructions.  This means not writing in a different address at the request of the seller.

I know if a seller asked me to do this, I would politely refuse.  Heck, I may even think the seller is trying to scam me by requesting such a thing.

You're not getting any argument from me. I'm well aware, having been a buyer for 21 years, what it's like on the buying side. 

That said...I have 100% feedback 5 star DSRs across the board, several thousand feedback, am Top-Rated, and offer a 30 day "no questions asked" return policy.

If a seller approached me....and HAS...the way I approached the buyer, I would be happy to work with them the way they wanted. 

The buyer gave ZERO benefit of the doubt. Didn't contact me directly, just went straight to eBay. Refused to WORK WITH ME, just said "nope, nope, NOPE!!" Wouldn't listen to me, when he could see the address I asked him to send it back to was IDENTICAL TO THE RETURN ADDRESS ON THE ORIGINAL PACKAGE. It wasn't a "different" address...it was the CORRECT address.

That's not how gentlemen conduct themselves, regardless of technicalities. In the END..the buyer got PRECISELY what he wanted, the WAY he wanted. That doesn't preclude me from calling the buyer tacky and uncouth.

Oh, and did I mention the buyer is a flipper....?

 

Edited September 24, 2019 by RockMyAmadeus

[Cat]

In the buyers (somewhat) defence, I could see them possibly interpreting 'packing materials' as meaning all the internal stuff, ie the packing peanuts and all that, but not the box itself. It's be weird, but it's a usage I have heard. 

I also have to agree I wouldn't change the address. It's not done as a seller, so there's no way I'd take the chance as a buyer, either. As far as it matching what was on the box it was sent out in? Okay, but does that one need to be verified first? I don't know, and I'm not taking that chance. It says send to (A), I'm sending it to (A), unless I receive a formal notice from Paypal informing me otherwise. You want me to hold it while you organise that? That's fine. But otherwise, sorry, that's where it's going. 

As for the refund, if eBay insists it's fine that the package was shipped to the correct city, I'd totally accept that. I'd notify them that the refund will be given to a random person in the buyer's city, and you'll provide them proof of that. That IS how it works, after all, right? 

[RockMyAmadeus]

15 minutes ago, Mecha_Fantastic said:

In the buyers (somewhat) defence, I could see them possibly interpreting 'packing materials' as meaning all the internal stuff, ie the packing peanuts and all that, but not the box itself. It's be weird, but it's a usage I have heard. 

I also have to agree I wouldn't change the address. It's not done as a seller, so there's no way I'd take the chance as a buyer, either. As far as it matching what was on the box it was sent out in? Okay, but does that one need to be verified first? I don't know, and I'm not taking that chance. It says send to (A), I'm sending it to (A), unless I receive a formal notice from Paypal informing me otherwise. You want me to hold it while you organise that? That's fine. But otherwise, sorry, that's where it's going. 

As for the refund, if eBay insists it's fine that the package was shipped to the correct city, I'd totally accept that. I'd notify them that the refund will be given to a random person in the buyer's city, and you'll provide them proof of that. That IS how it works, after all, right? 

Changing the address is not the issue. It didn't happen. It's not relevant.

Come on, folks. Focus! 

But to address it....for me, it depends entirely on the attitude of the seller. If the seller approached me and said what I said to the buyer, I would...because I have...just send it back to where the seller asked, especially if it lined up with the original return address. The buyer knew the package was insured. I'm not going to always assume the worst in everybody, because...and this is the kicker...if they decide to try and cheat me anyways, that's why I pay with my credit card. "Yeah, here's the tracking showing that I returned it to the return address on the package." Problem solved.

As for the box...again, I said "take pictures of the box, and send the remains back to me." Not sure how that can be misinterpreted, but as long, bitter experience has shown me, if it CAN be misinterpreted, it WILL be, and the job of a lawyer is to come up with every conceivable misinterpretation possible (and a few that aren't) and account for them.

Edited September 24, 2019 by RockMyAmadeus

[Cat]

1 hour ago, RockMyAmadeus said:

send the remains back to me, and I'll get you a full refund. IMPORTANT: PLEASE INCLUDE ALL ORIGINAL PACKING MATERIAL..."

Buyer did not, apparently, send back the damaged box as requested. I asked that it all be shipped back in a new box, not just simply reuse the old box....as I deal with maybe 1 return every 5 years, I never imagined that the buyer would interpret that to mean "get rid of the old box", especially after I very clearly said "send the remains back to me."

:shrug:

So, did the buyer do anything wrong...? You be the judge.

 

12 minutes ago, RockMyAmadeus said:

As for the box...again, I said "take pictures of the box, and send the remains back to me." Not sure how that can be misinterpreted, but as long, bitter experience has shown me, if it CAN be misinterpreted, it WILL be, and the job of a lawyer is to come up with every conceivable misinterpretation possible (and a few that aren't) and account for them.

I was responding to the exact wording you used. 

[masterlogan2000]

11 minutes ago, RockMyAmadeus said:

The buyer gave ZERO benefit of the doubt.

Again, putting yourself in the buyer's shoes... why should he give you a benefit of the doubt?  Does he owe you something?  Does he know you personally?  What guarantee is he provided by giving up his guarantee to a refund through eBay?

 

13 minutes ago, RockMyAmadeus said:

It wasn't a "different" address...it was the CORRECT address.

55 minutes ago, RockMyAmadeus said:

I moved this year, so my return address was my old PO box.  Before I caught it, I had sent out a return label.

According to eBay, the PO Box you asked him to write in was a different address.  According to eBay, the correct address is the address that is printed via their own return label.  You may not like that, but that's the reality of the situation.

 

As a buyer wanting a return, without knowing anything about the seller, would you honestly risk your refund for a seller that has already failed to properly deliver the package that was originally purchased?  As @Mecha_Fantastic stated, what would you do if the buyer originally asked you to write in a new address as his shipping address?  Are you willing to give the buyer the benefit of the doubt and void all of your already limited seller protections because they told you it needed to be shipped somewhere else?

 

[RockMyAmadeus]

1 minute ago, Mecha_Fantastic said:

 

I was responding to the exact wording you used. 

Right...which was: "please repackage the book as best you can, take a few more pictures of the original shipping box all the way around, and send the remains back to me, and I'll get you a full refund. IMPORTANT: PLEASE INCLUDE ALL ORIGINAL PACKING MATERIAL..."

(emphasis added)

Two different statements there.

[porcupine48]

Why are folk arguing about the return address thing when it's really about the post office and feebay?

(okay,and not taking more pics,sending box back.)

Seller didn't return to where RMA asked nicely,RMA said that's fine,he didn't have to.

G'night all,hope it gets sorted

Edited September 24, 2019 by porcupine48