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JOKER: THE MOVIE spoilers thread (anything goes)
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243 posts in this topic

4 minutes ago, theCapraAegagrus said:

Thomas Wayne being replaced by any schmo doesn't change anything. The story would be the same.

Delusional man. Delusional adopted mother. Deluded into thinking a man is his father. Etc. Wayne being that man isn't important. The story would've been better had he not been that man IMO. Tried too hard to make a Batman connection.

Disagree....at the very least, "any schmo" has to be rich.  It reinforces the fact that Arthur was THAT CLOSE to living a life of privilege, but misses out simply because he's not accepted by that father.  You can't tell that story if Arthur's father is just another bum.

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1 minute ago, RonS2112 said:

Short answer, yes.  Longer answer provide here by CinemaBlend in a better way than I could write it up:

https://www.cinemablend.com/news/2481483/joker-ending-explained-what-really-happened

Note the link to a Joaquin Phoenix interview where he basically hints at the same thing.  He said he deliberately did not answer the question as to what's real and what isn't.

That's just confusing "cinema", if so.

We already see some realization of delusion. What's the purpose, if it's all delusion?

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12 minutes ago, theCapraAegagrus said:

Well, Arthur didn't take his mom's word at face value. He confronted Wayne and there was no indication that they're related. No part of their interaction appeared to corroborate what she said. He investigated, and the story tells us that he's not Wayne's son.

And then there's the adoption papers. The story tells us that she's delusional. She lied to herself and to her adopted son. Arthur lied to himself, too.

Ahhh, but then there's the picture in the file of his mother as a young woman with the note from Arthur Wayne written on the back.  So was she delusional or wasn't she?

 

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2 minutes ago, RonS2112 said:

Disagree....at the very least, "any schmo" has to be rich.  It reinforces the fact that Arthur was THAT CLOSE to living a life of privilege, but misses out simply because he's not accepted by that father.  You can't tell that story if Arthur's father is just another bum.

That still supports the fact that it does not have to be Wayne - and IMO it shouldn't have been Wayne.

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1 minute ago, theCapraAegagrus said:

That's just confusing "cinema", if so.

We already see some realization of delusion. What's the purpose, if it's all delusion?

My interpretation was that at the end of the movie, Arthur is finally taking steps to make his fantasy -- twisted as it is -- into reality.

 

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1 minute ago, theCapraAegagrus said:

That still supports the fact that it does not have to be Wayne - and IMO it shouldn't have been Wayne.

Maybe, but then the whole beat-down by Wayne Enterprise employees seems to lack purpose.

 

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1 minute ago, RonS2112 said:

Ahhh, but then there's the picture in the file of his mother as a young woman with the note from Arthur Wayne written on the back.  So was she delusional or wasn't she?

The story supports that she's delusional. Otherwise I don't see the point. If she's not delusional, then what was the point of everything that happened? Nothing supports the other observation. I think the filmmakers are trying to make us question our own sanity, obviously.

It's working!

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2 minutes ago, RonS2112 said:

Ahhh, but then there's the picture in the file of his mother as a young woman with the note from Arthur Wayne written on the back.  So was she delusional or wasn't she?

 

That's what I was trying to get at. The picture with the note comes so late in the story that is must mean something. It wasn't like Penny wanted Arthur to find out that Thomas was his daddy or had bragged about it. She had basically hidden it from him all this time. If she was delusional about that she would have told him. I think it was the one thing she wasn't crazy about.

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1 minute ago, RonS2112 said:

Maybe, but then the whole beat-down by Wayne Enterprise employees seems to lack purpose.

Wayne doesn't have to be related to Fleck in any way for that to matter. Wayne Enterprises reinforces the story happening within Gotham. A DC movie. Wayne employees are 'regular' people. Arthur doesn't connect with regular people.

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1 minute ago, theCapraAegagrus said:

The story supports that she's delusional. Otherwise I don't see the point. If she's not delusional, then what was the point of everything that happened? Nothing supports the other observation. I think the filmmakers are trying to make us question our own sanity, obviously.

It's working!

Right....it's deliberately ambiguous.  Arthur seems to think that all he needs is a chance and he can be successful.  Parts of the film support that, but then the reality slowly dawns that perhaps he's too far gone, and maybe always was.

Anyway, between here and the folks I saw the film with, it's sparked quite a bit of relevant discussion, which I think is the hallmark of a good movie, no?

 

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1 minute ago, theCapraAegagrus said:

Wayne doesn't have to be related to Fleck in any way for that to matter. Wayne Enterprises reinforces the story happening within Gotham. A DC movie. Wayne employees are 'regular' people. Arthur doesn't connect with regular people.

That's one interpretation,  I suppose.  But given how well-crafted the rest of the story is, I kinda think pointing out that they were Wayne Enterprise employees was more deliberate than that.

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Just now, RonS2112 said:

Right....it's deliberately ambiguous.  Arthur seems to think that all he needs is a chance and he can be successful.  Parts of the film support that, but then the reality slowly dawns that perhaps he's too far gone, and maybe always was.

Anyway, between here and the folks I saw the film with, it's sparked quite a bit of relevant discussion, which I think is the hallmark of a good movie, no?

Idk. People talk about bad movies like Captain Marvel, too...

Worlds of DC tends to produce comic book movies that make you think, though.

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7 minutes ago, RonS2112 said:

Ahhh, but then there's the picture in the file of his mother as a young woman with the note from Arthur Wayne written on the back.  So was she delusional or wasn't she?

Joker Star Addresses if SPOILER Is Really Arthur's Father

Quote

There are a lot of questions surrounding the new Joker movie as it makes its debut in theaters this weekend. And while some people are curious about the film's ultimate box office success (which is looking very good after its opening weekend), and other people are wondering about whether the film is promoting violence among its viewers, many of the fans who have actually seen Joker are more curious about the mysteries presented in the movie — especially when it comes to Batman's father Thomas Wayne. The movie goes a long way to blur the lines between imagination and reality, and by the end we are left wondering what is real and what isn't.

 

One of the film's major "revelations" that fans are left wondering about is the true parentage of Arthur Fleck, the man who goes on to become the Joker. While the movie makes it seem like Arthur discovers his mother Penny possibly had a relationship with Bruce Wayne's father Thomas.

 

Now Thomas Wayne actor Brett Cullen has opened up about his role in Joker during an interview with the Hollywood Reporter, revealing some new details about some of the mysteries surrounding the film as he himself understood them.

 

"The backstory was that Arthur’s mother had worked for Thomas in his home, and she was a beautiful woman who Thomas was attracted to and it led to a physical relationship," Cullen explained about his conversations with director Todd Phillips. "Later in life, she’s in and out of mental institutions. And in my mind, Thomas Wayne put her there."

hm

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1 minute ago, RonS2112 said:

That's one interpretation,  I suppose.  But given how well-crafted the rest of the story is, I kinda think pointing out that they were Wayne Enterprise employees was more deliberate than that.

Well, yeah, Wayne is in the movie and who Arthur thinks his dad is. I simply don't like that inclusion because I think it's just pandering to those who are there for a DC comic book movie. I think they wanted to cram as much Batman junk in as they could. I preferred otherwise.

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1 minute ago, theCapraAegagrus said:

Well, yeah, Wayne is in the movie and who Arthur thinks his dad is. I simply don't like that inclusion because I think it's just pandering to those who are there for a DC comic book movie. I think they wanted to cram as much Batman junk in as they could. I preferred otherwise.

Ha!  As I was leaving the theater, there was one guy -- obviously a Batman fan -- railing loudly that he thought the movie sucked because it was too artsy with no Batman.  Not sure how he could have seen the same trailer I did and conclude that this movie was going to be anything other than a character study.  Put a humorous ending on an otherwise great movie though.

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4 minutes ago, RonS2112 said:

Ha!  As I was leaving the theater, there was one guy -- obviously a Batman fan -- railing loudly that he thought the movie sucked because it was too artsy with no Batman.  Not sure how he could have seen the same trailer I did and conclude that this movie was going to be anything other than a character study.  Put a humorous ending on an otherwise great movie though.

Art make brain hurt. :sumo:

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Just now, Bosco685 said:

Based on what Brett Cullen shared in that interview, it could hint at the adoption papers were fake so as to throw Arthur or anyone else off the Thomas Wayne trail if they happened across this.

That's deep!

That's what I interpreted the movie as from the get go, but it wasn't ever a plot point that "Arthur" realized so I was left wondering what the point of it was, idk lol 

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1 minute ago, Bosco685 said:

Based on what Brett Cullen shared in that interview, it could hint at the adoption papers were fake so as to throw Arthur or anyone else off the Thomas Wayne trail if they happened across this.

That's stupid!

Fixed that for ya...

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