JOKER: THE MOVIE spoilers thread (anything goes) 1 1

[Artboy99]

9 minutes ago, fantastic_four said:

It'd be a stretch that he'd want to, but if he wanted to, yes, money can make most things happen.  But Wayne himself likely would've judged her unfavorably as being fit to be a single mother.

His adoption by a single mother idea is far more likely within the film to be a plot hole created in his own personal narrative.

disagree. At the time the adoption happened if she was "fit" enough to be a trusted employee why wouldn't he support her wish to be a mother?

His involvement wouldn't have to be anything more than a phone call to have her application approved.

We didnt see any of this in the film so at this point I agree it is a bit of a plot hole.

Edited October 15, 2019 by Artboy99

[fantastic_four]

33 minutes ago, Artboy99 said:

disagree. At the time the adoption happened if she was "fit" enough to be a trusted employee why wouldn't he support her wish to be a mother?

For the same reason the rest of society disparaged single women and particularly single mothers.  It's certainly possible that Thomas Wayne was more enlightened than most, but if we're going to limit ourselves to the context of this story in the first place--which is a mistake and likely academic since Joker probably made most of it up--Wayne seemed to be quite an unsympathetic type of guy.  Which again is more likely because that's the way Joker preferred to depict him in his tale.

[fantastic_four]

I've decided I'm definitely watching this at least one more time, just not in the theater.  Upon a second viewing I'll be watching it through the prism of it all being a manufactured tale of the Joker as we see in those two panels I linked before from Killing Joke.  I'm particularly interested in scenes which lean heavily towards idealized versions of events that depict Joker in a a more positive light.  It occurred to me this week that the riot scene where the people lift him out of the car like he's Jesus and gently resting him on the car hood is probably him romanticizing whatever actually did happen.

[ADAMANTIUM]

Is it at least safe to dance?

[zhamlau]

On 10/14/2019 at 10:02 AM, Artboy99 said:

I disagree regarding income requirements.

My parents adopted 2 kids in 1973 when I was 8, at the time my Mother did not work but my Dad did but we were certainly far from well off. Heck the home we lived in did not have an "in home" toilet but an outhouse.

I would even go as far to say we were poor. Powdered milk with bulk packaged puffed wheat cereal for breakfast certainly supports that. Ever ate puffed wheat with powdered milk? I certainly won't ever again in my life. 

The difference was it was 70's and not the 40's, and it was a married couple not a single 20 year old woman who clearly had mental issues.

[Artboy99]

49 minutes ago, zhamlau said:

The difference was it was 70's and not the 40's, and it was a married couple not a single 20 year old woman who clearly had mental issues.

did she have mental issues then or did they develop later?

[Hollywood1892]

I'm starting to lean more towards the fact Arthur could be Thomas Wayne's kid.

How would any reputable adoption agency allow a twenty year old maid to adopt a child? That storyline doesnt sit well with me.

[zhamlau]

Just now, Artboy99 said:

did she have mental issues then or did they develop later?

 

Well that's the thing since its fiction of course and it was not explicitly shown, you have to just make assumptions. I would imagine though that multiple crippling mental illnesses would not just appear the instant she was granted an adopted child, but likely were always there in her adulthood.

[zhamlau]

45 minutes ago, Hollywood1892 said:

I'm starting to lean more towards the fact Arthur could be Thomas Wayne's kid.

How would any reputable adoption agency allow a twenty year old maid to adopt a child? That storyline doesnt sit well with me.

In the 1940s, and she had no means of visible support other than a job that would have kept her working many hours a day (no other family, or church group/social group). It appears Arthur's true parentage was unknown at the time of the adoption, that also raises a  red flag of pure convenience.

Imagine a very rich businessman with all the connections in the world to City Hall and its organizations (like a city adoption agency)...who wanted to make his illegitimate child's birth go away before it ruined him in 1940's society....this is EXACTLY how they would do it.

Edited October 15, 2019 by zhamlau

[theCapraAegagrus]

He's adopted. Get over it.

[zhamlau]

4 hours ago, theCapraAegagrus said:

He's adopted. Get over it.

Agreed, saw the document in the movie.

[Bosco685]

1 hour ago, zhamlau said:

Agreed, saw the document in the movie.

Could have been created by Thomas Wayne to throw off any claims of it being his kid by using his extensive funds to form an adoption paper trail. 

[Bosco685]

Too cool.

 

[zhamlau]

5 hours ago, Bosco685 said:

Could have been created by Thomas Wayne to throw off any claims of it being his kid by using his extensive funds to form an adoption paper trail. 

Oh Arthur is Wayne and Penny’s son, but there was an official adoption no doubt about that. I was only confirming that there was a legal adoption that occurred.

[Bosco685]

10 minutes ago, zhamlau said:

Oh Arthur is Wayne and Penny’s son, but there was an official adoption no doubt about that. I was only confirming that there was a legal adoption that occurred.

Ahhhhh. I get your point now. Thanks. 

[theCapraAegagrus]

He's not related to Wayne. Get over it.

[fantastic_four]

The more I think about elements of the film the more I think those comments in the press from Philips and Phoenix were meant literally, that the entire film is a tale spun entirely by the Joker in his mind.  That's why he's on-screen EVERY moment of the film, because he's the center of his own story.  Was there any scene at all in the entire film that wasn't shown from the Joker's perspective in his world where he wasn't the center of the scene?  That's another element I'll be looking for in a repeat viewing.

[Bosco685]

 

[valiantman]

On 10/17/2019 at 9:43 AM, fantastic_four said:

Was there any scene at all in the entire film that wasn't shown from the Joker's perspective in his world where he wasn't the center of the scene?  That's another element I'll be looking for in a repeat viewing.

The Waynes being shot in the alley was viewed at an angle the Joker could not have seen (especially if he was still knocked out from the crash).  Perhaps that's the only "factual event" from the story.

[Pete Marino]

Saw it this weekend and was blown away.  The ending from the point at which de niro was killed to the very end was about as intense as I've seen in a long time.  With the perfect crazy end scene in the mental hospital.

As good as it was, I almost hope they don't make a sequel and just keep it as 1 great movie.