JOKER: THE MOVIE spoilers thread (anything goes)
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41 minutes ago, Martin Sinescu said:

It's posible we have different impressions of 1981 :)

Possibly. (:

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Lot to unpack. Great movie first off. I think now that I’ve had some time to think about it.

I will say I believe Thomas Wayne really was his father. The scandal of him having an affair and creating a child from it would have been devastating in the 40s to someone of Wayne’s standing and stature (putting fleck at 33 in 1981 means he was born in the 40s). I think that’s why some money was thrown at a bureaucrat to draw up some adoption papers to make it look like this 20 something single woman adopted a child. I mean think about, how many young beautiful women in their 20s adopted children...in the 1940s?! It just never happened. It screams of someone trying to avoid a scandal. Also Fleck confronted anyone associated with the Wayne’s they all knew in excruciating detail who Fleck was and the story behind it.  And that photo, the TW, I don’t think that was delusion. The delusions I believe were only when he experienced anything remotely positive. That photo seems to seal it (oddly I didn’t even remember it til I read about it here, than it all clicked).

 

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14 hours ago, zhamlau said:

Lot to unpack. Great movie first off. I think now that I’ve had some time to think about it.

I will say I believe Thomas Wayne really was his father. The scandal of him having an affair and creating a child from it would have been devastating in the 40s to someone of Wayne’s standing and stature (putting fleck at 33 in 1981 means he was born in the 40s). I think that’s why some money was thrown at a bureaucrat to draw up some adoption papers to make it look like this 20 something single woman adopted a child. I mean think about, how many young beautiful women in their 20s adopted children...in the 1940s?! It just never happened. It screams of someone trying to avoid a scandal. Also Fleck confronted anyone associated with the Wayne’s they all knew in excruciating detail who Fleck was and the story behind it.  And that photo, the TW, I don’t think that was delusion. The delusions I believe were only when he experienced anything remotely positive. That photo seems to seal it (oddly I didn’t even remember it til I read about it here, than it all clicked).

Fleck sent letters to Wayne every week. If some psycho sent me letters every week - you can guarantee everyone in my family will know what the story is.

Also, wouldn't Wayne being his dad be "positive delusion"? He killed his mom because of the lies.

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26 minutes ago, theCapraAegagrus said:

Fleck sent letters to Wayne every week. If some psycho sent me letters every week - you can guarantee everyone in my family will know what the story is.

Also, wouldn't Wayne being his dad be "positive delusion"? He killed his mom because of the lies.

Arthur killed his mother because he found out she stood watching while her boyfriend repeatedly abused him as a kid. Including massive head trauma. Not just because she lied to him.

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7 minutes ago, Bosco685 said:

Arthur killed his mother because he found out she stood watching while her boyfriend repeatedly abused him as a kid. Including massive head trauma. Not just because she lied to him.

So, you're saying that the trauma of finding out you're adopted and lied to did nothing to escalate the situation...?

Gimme a break.

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On 10/4/2019 at 12:10 PM, valiantman said:

I assume your audience was going for "nervous laughter" or "last-chance-to-laugh-at-something", since that scene wasn't funny.  Or perhaps, like the doctor, I just didn't get it. hm :grin:

I heard some laughs in my theater and while I wasn't sure what motivated them, I found the scene absurd so I assumed they did too.  Two hours of watching him build up into a killer and how he's just a total loon now, eh, whacking everyone around him on a whim?

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19 minutes ago, theCapraAegagrus said:

So, you're saying that the trauma of finding out you're adopted and lied to did nothing to escalate the situation...?

Gimme a break.

Gimme a break if you think someone tries to kill another person because they lied about adoption.

But if they found out you sat and watched while they were chained to a radiator and tortured, all bets are off. It comes across as horrible behavior from a parent, and close to them actually doing the torture.

Now, back to "Days Of Our Gimme A Break Lives" :insane:

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On 10/4/2019 at 2:39 PM, comicginger1789 said:

2) Is this the best DC related film (in your opinion) since the Dark Knight film?

Maybe, not sure yet.  But for now I still rank Dark Knight Rises higher than this one.  I may decide differently later.  I did like Joker better than all the others since 2008 though including Wonder Woman.  I enjoyed Man of Steel more, but that was before Dark Knight.  But that's a personal preference/bias, Joker was a better film than Man of Steel from an objective perspective.

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1 minute ago, Bosco685 said:

Gimme a break if you think someone tries to kill another person because they lied about adoption.

But if they found out you sat and watched while they were chained to a radiator and tortured, all bets are off. It comes across as horrible behavior from a parent, and close to them actually doing the torture.

Now, back to "Days Of Our Gimme A Break Lives" :insane:

Gimme a break if you think 1 thing led to her murder. They're both about equal. He's living her lies, though. Just because he was abused once, and doesn't remember, doesn't mean that 1 thing culminated in that action.

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10 minutes ago, theCapraAegagrus said:

Gimme a break if you think 1 thing led to her murder. They're both about equal. He's living her lies, though. Just because he was abused once, and doesn't remember, doesn't mean that 1 thing culminated in that action.

I think you may have missed a point about the torture. The report the orderly didn't want to give him said th her boyfriend did this multiple times. Again, why it was so horrible and why when Arthur found out about this he was horrified by this news.

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Just now, Bosco685 said:

I think you may have missed a point about the torture. The report the orderly didn't want to give him said th her boyfriend did this multiple times. Again, why it was so horrible and why when Arthur found out about this he was horrified by this news.

I didn't miss the fact that he obviously didn't remember it. A blatant lie, to me, is worse than not reminding someone of being tortured. She also lied about why she was mailing Wayne, etc. Her continued lies lead me/us to think that she was in fact delusional about Wayne being his father.

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VANITY FAIR: Joker - Let’s Talk About His Mom, Shall We?

Quote

Shocked, Arthur drags himself to Arkham and steals a folder away from a weary but suspicious clerk (Brian Tyree Henry, who should always be onscreen much longer than he is). In the file—illustrated by a flashback to Young Penny (Hannah Gross) in Arkham, bruised and confessing to her past dark deeds—he learns that his mother wasn’t just some lovestruck employee who went mad after a crush—she was a dangerous, hyper-delusional narcissist who stood by while her partner at the time abused Arthur throughout his childhood, which plays a hand in his troubled mental state. His childhood abuse is also the origin of his disturbing laugh, a nervous, unstoppable tic he adopted in order to deal with horrible circumstances (to put! It! Mildly!). The flashback with Young Penny is one of the few times we see her inner life and get a better glimpse of the darkness she passed down to her son. While this movie is never in danger of passing the Bechdel Test, a longer glimpse at Penny’s life would have been welcome, especially since she holds the key to Arthur’s path to villainy and is, frankly, the only female character of consequence (with all due respect to Zazie Beetz, who plays Arthur’s creeped-out neighbor).

 

All the new details about his mother and his childhood send Arthur completely over the edge. He kills his mother, suffocating her with a pillow, then fully descends into madness, no longer tethered to any friends or family. It’s all a little difficult to keep up with since the film keeps certain family details murky (Arthur’s real father, for example, is never revealed or discussed at length); all the better to tear it all down and create new twists should the film get a sequel. However, it’s the backstory to the backstory, a much-needed explanation for Arthur’s determined turn to the dark side.

Hey, but it all come down to someone lied to Arthur that tips him over the edge. hm

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So with Brett Cullen's reveal and then with Arthur's mom, I can see why Joker became the madman terrorizing Gotham.

In this film, it sounds like Thomas Wayne may have paid to have fake adoption papers created to clean up his own mess. While also trying to distance himself from what he discovered to be a crazy worker he got pregnant.

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Again, A twenty year old (with mental illness) single woman is not going to be adopting a child in the 1940s. Things like that just didn’t happen, adoption would have gone through a married couple back than. That part alone seals the deal. Add in the photo note and the insanity of everyone connected to Wayne knowing the story of Fleck, it’s clear he was the father. Wayne wouldn’t be telling everyone she was sending him letters daily, why would they know what’s in his personal mail if he didn’t tell them and had NO motive to tell them. Also why would he never reply “you are wrong leave me alone or I’ll have my attorney contact you”? He gains nothing by ignoring unless he has something to hide or wants it to go away. 
 

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Posted (edited)

"Things like that weren't typical so it definitely didn't happen" is not a solid argument, my friend.

The movie suggest that Wayne is not his father more than anything else.

Edited by theCapraAegagrus

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On 10/5/2019 at 12:21 PM, valiantman said:
On 10/5/2019 at 12:00 PM, Xenosmilus said:

It wasn't part of his plan. He was playing the long game.

Completely moral-less has no long game which spares the innocent.

Yes, but he's not fully the Joker at this point.  He's still transitioning from his normal life, so his compassion for someone who helped him makes sense.  He just probably won't even have the chance to form those types of relationships from now on.

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On 10/7/2019 at 12:44 PM, RonS2112 said:

My take was that EVERYTHING ELSE was a fantasy and that the final scene was him finally taking steps to realize that fantasy.  But the folks I saw the film with didn't all agree with me....

"It was all just a dream!" movies are a huge stereotype for lazy screenwriting that is infamous in Hollywood.  I doubt that Phillips is unfamiliar with that stereotype, so I doubt he would've ever wanted to base a film on that idea.

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On 10/7/2019 at 12:55 PM, Darkga said:

But what are the chances of his "adoptive" mother suffering from such a similar condition without heredity? It's too much of a coincidence in my opinion.

Not all psychological disorders are genetic.  The entire idea they were going for seems to be that Joker is a product of one of the most awful possible environments to raise a kid in.  Something like the one Francis Dolarhyde was raised in during Thomas Harris's book or the movie for "Red Dragon."

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On 10/7/2019 at 1:06 PM, valiantman said:

Arthur was 30

How do we know that?

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